Trans remembrance flags and SNP renews support for LGBTYS

[WandsOut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14226129/Trans-remembrance-flags-flown-public-buildings.html

What is going on here.
Why are they so determined to support LGBTYS and trans young people - who is driving this?

Remember ‘trans remembrance day’ hardly sits in isolation - a single event to consider transgender people. There is also trans ‘history’ month, trans pride month, general pride month focusing on trans taking place over several (most?) months, trans awareness month, trans awareness week, international day of transgender visibility, IDAHOBITA, various non-binary events, queer day, trans parent day…

The determination of adult transactivists to use and weaponise vulnerable children in their pursuit of trans demands is shameful

It is. It's utterly repellent and irresponsible.

These are all reasons that government commemoration of TDOR is being questioned.

Not because anyone thinks it's inherently wrong for 'those pesky trans people to have a day' or just wanting to be 'unkind'.

As with a lot of related issues, it's more complex than it may first appear.

It's not wrong to question and discuss, especially where democracy, government and balancing of different groups rights is concerned

It's not wrong to question and discuss, especially where democracy, government and balancing of different groups rights is concerned

Not only is it not wrong to question and discuss, for the sake of democracy it is vital that we do.

But we cant ignore the reality and lived experience of trans people to pretend they dont have very specific discrimination and that it's not ok.

Yes, but the word discrimination means different things to different people.

For example, as has been mentioned up thread, KJK said in a video that landlords should avoid renting properties and employers should avoid giving jobs to people who identify as trans. This is unfair discrimination by legal standards and thankfully the law doesn't allow for this. Whilst KJK speaks a lot of sense on many things, I think she disappointed a lot of people with this video. There was a thread about it at the time and I was one of many who said she'd gone too far with these comments.

However, there are people who identify as trans who will stretch the boundaries of "discrimination" way out of shape when claiming to have been unfairly discriminated against. For example, apparently excluding transwomen from women's sports is unfair discrimination.

Technically, on a legal level, it is "discrimination". But the key point here is that it's legally permissable discrimination under the single sex exemption in the Equality Act. It's not unfair. It's an example of why the single sex exemption (or legally permitted discrimination) is allowed. When TRAs cry foul at this, it exposes their discrimination against women's right to fair sport. Ditto for other single sex exemptions, such as changing rooms, rape crisis centres, prisons and other places where we legally "discriminate" by sex.

Indeed.

'Discrimination' has become a dirty word. Many people wrongly read it as meaning 'prejudice' when it means to notice and act on difference.

Sometimes that is a legitimate thing to do, as described above.

But we cant ignore the reality and lived experience of trans people to pretend they dont have very specific discrimination and that it's not ok.

Or

But we cant ignore the reality and lived experience of women to pretend they don't have very specific discrimination and that it's not ok.

which may be way more likely to happen? Certainly in terms of numbers anyway

It is not discrimination to recognise someone’s sex

but isn't this the very real and important discussion to be had about the tension between the protected characteristics of both sex and gender, and this is the point at which they clash? This is the conversation i'm waiting to be had properly and fully, so far all politicians and legislatures seem happy to let this debate play out in public arenas where we all do their work for them and bear the emotional labour of a tough conversation

I believe both of these "characteristics" experience discrimination, and both should be protected, and I think the cowardice of politicians refusing to engage in the discussion leads to the instances you are talking of - a lack of transparency or true interrogation of trans sports, for example

i don't know why we have to only care about one part of the argument? Can't i be a woman who cares about sex based rights, which may sometimes clash with trans rights, but also care about trans rights? Can i do that without pretending that transphobia and anti-trans discrimination doesnt exist??

and to respond to another poster - yes, its horrendous that some women don't get HRT. (I dispute your claim that every trans woman does, based on my conversations with them) But i get it, i've been hideously delayed in my own diagnosis and treatment. I don't blame the very small numbers of trans healthcare for it. I blame a deeply misogynistic health care system that underfunds and undervalues women.

but isn't this the very real and important discussion to be had about the tension between the protected characteristics of both sex and gender, and this is the point at which they clash?

It's not feminist women who have prevented this discussion. Women have always asked for our rights, concerns, views and feelings to be taken into account but up until very recently they were distinctly second fiddle. It's trans rights activists who coined the slogan #NoDebate.

i'm not pointing fingers or apportioning blame to any of this! i don't believe feminists have prevented this discussion, as you say.

wouldn't it be good to move away from a historic blame game and look to how we move forward together?

Because the way you worded it suggested that women here and our "side" in general were standing in the way of that discussion. You are suggesting something that women have long been asking for, it's not some new idea no one has thought of before.

wouldn't it be good to move away from a historic blame game and look to how we move forward together?

Feel free to also deliver that message to the trans activists on Reddit 🤷‍♀️

go tell the TRAs and when they agree, come back to us. We have had this conversation countless times (go to a TRA reddit and suggest the PERFECTLY SENSIBLE 3rd spaces, and if you survive do come back and tell us about it)

Yes, you are so reasonable and the rest of us are completely unreasonable for being sick to the back teeth of never ever geting to the front of the queue.

but isn't this the very real and important discussion to be had about the tension between the protected characteristics of both sex and gender

Gender is not a protected characteristic.

Gender reassignment is but has repeated been determined NOT to change sex. It means you cannot treat a man differently from other men because they are undergoing gender reassignment. In other words you cannot ban a man who identifies as a woman from men’s changing rooms or men’s sports, but they have no right to women’s changing rooms or women’s sports.

wouldn't it be good to move away from a historic blame game and look to how we move forward together?

Of course. Women here have been trying to
'move forward' for over a decade. But up until very recently, we haven't even been allowed to discuss it, let alone move in any direction.

Women have been kicked off every site possible, including Reddit, Facebook, Twitter and Mumsnet. They've been arrested for using normal, and obviously completely legal words that TRAs don't like. They've been sued, attacked, hit, relentlessly threatened, doxxed and fired. It's been unbelievably scary for very many women.

Go to any TRAs and suggest a third space where you personally believe women might be entitled to single sex provision. Be reasonable, suggest dialogue, explain your argument.

Let us know how it goes.

sadmillenial Can't i be a woman who cares about sex based rights, which may sometimes clash with trans rights, but also care about trans rights? Can i do that without pretending that transphobia and anti-trans discrimination doesnt exist??

Pretending about anything doesn't do well here on FWR [or FS&G as I see it's called now] where great value is placed on facts, verifiable statistics, scientific evidence, that sort of thing.
So in answer to you question, no you don't have to pretend anything about transphobia and anti-trans discrimination, sticking to the facts is good enough.

yes, i understand this frustration and i promise i'm not trying to diminish it, i also get irate when im told im either transphobic or a traitor to my sex (ive been told both, often within the same conversation)

I don't judge arguments by the extremes, i dont measure trans people by the extreme TRA arguments and i dont believe most women's right activists seek to be transphobic either.

from my experience the vast majority of both groups are looking to find a solution that works? the loudest voices arent always speaking for the majority

sorry, i think maybe ive expressed this clumsily - i wasnt intending to suggest this was a new idea or that no one had considered it before

Requiring others to pretend you are the opposite sex IS extreme.

The loudest voices are often not speaking for the majority, no, but they're the ones that get listened to.

Have a read of 'women won't wheesht ' which documents many many women's struggles to even engage with the democratic process in Scotland, with respect to women's rights.

It happens south of the border, too.

And no, I'm not saying 'trans people shouldn't have rights' - I'm saying they shouldn't be given extra rights at the expense of women (hence my annoyance at Scottish public buildings commemorating TDOR). You seem determined to portray women here as being anti dialogue, anti reasonable and trans, and that is just not true.

If someone has called you a traitor to your sex, I'd suggest taking it up with them, rather than some randoms on the Internet 🤷‍♀️

from my experience the vast majority of both groups are looking to find a solution that works?

Where are the reasonable people on the other side, who accept there is a conflict of rights and that what women feel matters too? Can you link to an online board where they are discussing it? Shouldn't be too tricky to find if what you say is true.

Ah, this comes up depressingly regularly - women being blamed for the 'toxic' argument.

It's age old. Women apparently -

• Were right but didn't say it nicely enough.
• Women should 'be kind' and step to one side.
• Mild disagreement is obviously the same as rape and death threats. Obs.

It boils down to - 'Women! Know your place! Follow your socialisation or you deserve everything you get!'

Depressing.

.