Trans remembrance flags and SNP renews support for LGBTYS

[WandsOut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14226129/Trans-remembrance-flags-flown-public-buildings.html

What is going on here.
Why are they so determined to support LGBTYS and trans young people - who is driving this?

I wonder if the prejudice and discrimination they face for being trans is relevant to their mental health 🤔

Trans status could still be a relevant factor in their murder, yes.

These imaginary murders of British trans people that no one knows about that you've invented to suit your argument?

You know when murders of women weren't recorded centuries ago?

Does that mean they weren't being murdered?

You know every murder in the UK is investigated by the coroner and police? And the coroner investigates every suicide.

I wonder if the prejudice and discrimination they face for being trans is relevant to their mental health

I would say the pressure of trying to control other people and persuade them to deny their own reality and feelings to prop up your personal identity, and them resisting this control, is probably a stressful situation.

Anyone is potentially trans Eresh! And we just don't know and can't ever tell, and its all covered up by governments who are hiding the data while simultaneously flying flags in memoriam.

I do actually agree with suggestions here, that the category of 'trans' is so vague as to be essentially meaningless.

Maybe it would be better to see it as a memorial to the latent and potential state of transness within every heart and soul. Except Tiffany Scott's.

You still haven’t shown discrimination. Or are you going to refer back to US pie charts that could show trans people completing a survey are more likely to be students?

I think we should use the trans day of remembrance to bring the details of Tiffany Scott’s recent life to the attention of every Scot.

If you're not going to respond to any of the points in my post, I'm not sure why you quoted it.

But we aren't living hundreds of years ago. We're living in 2025. And all murders are recorded.

How does a trans person suffer discrimination, exclusion and prejudice leading to all the above if no one knows they are trans?

I have found this conversation quite interesting. However, I have yet to see a cogent argument why SG should particularly fly flags for a TG Day of Remembrance.

Edited to add: I had tried to quote @ElleWoods15 's response to my question but failed.

Thank you for answering.

I haven't seen anyone use "trans" and "cross-dressing" as synonyms but I would agree with you that they are not.
Cross-dressing (aka transvesticism) is sexually-driven and this doesn't apply to all people who identify as transgender. And, as you say, not all cross-dressers will call themselves trans.

As an aside, it also feeds into the myth that there is a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a girl, and a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a boy. And I’m guessing that actually the vast majority of both trans allies and GC posters on this forum would disagree with that.

I think you're right, the vast majority would. The difficulty comes in when "gender expression" and "social transition" come into play. Whilst trans allies and GC-type people might agree on this, I can't imagine there would be many people who identify as trans who choose to wear the clothes that are stereotypically associated with their sex. For most, wearing the clothing and hairstyle etc most commonly associated with the opposite sex will be an important part of identifying as trans.

On the theme of the thread (and as a general comment, not specifically in response to yours), I would agree with the PPs who find it odd that the Scottish government wants to mark trans day of remembrance. Whilst all murders and suicides are awful, and this day is apparently international, the murders, suicides and other deaths of people who identify as trans don't have any relevance in Scotland. Except for Tiffany Scott of course. If it's about international solidarity, I wonder if they also commemorate the International Day of Reflection on the 1994 genocide of the Tusti in Rwanda or International Chernobyl Remembrance Day, both in April according to the list of remembrance and other international days posted earlier in the thread.

It's equally odd that they continue to fund and associate with LGBTYS, given the scandals in that charity.

You know, and doesn't this just say it all...for anyone reading who has any doubts..

Who knows intuitively, instinctively, the prejudice that exists, and is being told right here and now on Mumsnet Feminism and Women's Rights to doubt what we all know is true.

By sleight of hand, courtesy of FWR forums , be convinced, to distrust your own knowledge.

These old tricks. Most people are knowledgeable and bored of them now, but there is possibly still a contingent of FWR readers falling for them, I don't know.

If the first one hundred people in a trans person's life know they are trans, and they experience discrimination, exclusion and prejudice on that basis, and from consequence to consequence find themselves in horrific circumstances because of this, and the final person that murders them does so in the context of those horrific circumstances, but despite not knowing individually that that they are trans, is their trans status not relevant?

This whole thread has moved in so many directions since i've been reading/commenting so its almost impossible to address everything that has been said. Apologies therefore if you feel ive "ignored" your points!

I feel like there are separate arguments happening, two of which ive picked out below

1 - whether it is reasonable for the govt to fly a flag for the trans community when others don't have a flag to fly/there isn't an official action for other communities.

for this, I can see the argument and can understand the posts on this point. As i've said before, i'd rather all communities and special days were marked in some way, not least because it gives voice to the myriad of issues we should all be pressuring our politicians to act on. 

2 - an argument that trans day of visibility is not reasonable or backed up by evidence, and is being used to bolster a false narrative for political means.

This one is harder, because no matter how gender critical one's views I cannot see how discrimination against trans people can be denied? Its evidenced so clearly in so many different aspects of public life. I don't know how the discussion became solely about murder rates, because that isn't the purpose of the day - Its about lives lost through violence, discrimination and other inequalities. Someone here (and i am paraphrasing) asked how transphobia could be a factor in someone's death if they "passed" and no one knew they were trans? How awful is that idea?? That is the defence used historically in "gay panic", and there's a reason that is no longer acceptable as a legal defence. No one should have to hide and live in fear to protect themselves from ostracization or violence, and even suggesting it means you DO acknowledge the existence of anti-trans threats! 

Like i've said before, Im not a TRA and ive argued previously to protect single sex spaces in certain organisations as well as other contentious points. But we cant ignore the reality and lived experience of trans people to pretend they dont have very specific discrimination and that it's not ok.

I think you've got it all arse upwards, to be honest. FWR is full of intelligent, questioning women who won't just believe what they are told. So when we are told that trans people are the most marginalised people in society and that they experience all this discrimination, we want to see some proof of that.

Because whilst you seem to think that we should instinctively know it is true without needing any proof, we actually have some questions. Namely, how it is possible for a group to be so marginalised and yet so powerful at the same time.

Because if you've had half the words in the dictionary redefined to suit you, if you can get women fired for saying humans can't change sex, if you can have women labelled bigots for wanting single sex rape crisis groups, if you can get the prime minister to say it's wrong to say that only women have a cervix because he's more afraid of offending your group than looking like a complete idiot, if you can have half the corporate world bedecked in rainbows and putting pronouns in their email signatures, you're actually pretty powerful IMO.

i'd say that if one's access to healthcare can be removed easily, as well as legal protections regarding gender reassignment being up for debate then that isn't actual power.

There's a difference between changing public attitudes/vocab and actually enshrining rights in law - ask any other minority group

I am having this same discussion with my gay friends - they are told constantly that the gay community has so much power and influence, while at the same time they are all terrified that we are one election away from their right to marry or adopt children being taken away (not an unreasonable fear if we look across the pond...)

What do you mean by their access to healthcare being removed?

Are trans people being turned away from A&E? Denied cancer treatment? Unable to register with a GP? Forced to pay for care which everyone gets for free?

No?

Then their access to healthcare is the same as everyone else's.

No one else is being prescribed dangerous experimental drugs which actually harm their physical health and shorten their lifespan and for which there is no good evidence base, just because they want them.

As for gender reassignment laws being up for debate, well, of course they should be up for debate. No one else has a right to falsify their legal documents. No one else is allowed to use single sex spaces for the opposite sex. No one else is allowed to impinge on the rights of other groups in this way. Of course that should be up for debate. Debating whether trans people actually, maybe, shouldn't have extra rights that no one else has and which have a negative effect on other groups, whether perhaps they should just have exactly the same rights as everyone else and no more, is not evidence that trans people are marginalised. It's a sign that actually they have special privileges that the rest us don't have, and we're allowed to debate whether that should be the case. Trying to tell us it's not up for debate is evidence of the power this group has.

Gay rights is not the same debate. Gay people's rights don't take away from any other group.

There is, in any case, no evidence that the new Labour government intends to restrict gay people's rights in any way, so your friends' fears appear to be unfounded. Donald Trump does not make laws in the UK.

If your gay friends are concerned about attitudes in the UK hardening against "the LGBTQ+ community", maybe that's a sign that they need to consciously uncouple from the TQ+, whose behaviour may be actively detrimental to their interests.

Here are the guidelines and, as you’ll see if you read them, you are being extremely irresponsible in posting in this very oversimplified way about causation in young people. https://www.samaritans.org/about-samaritans/media-guidelines/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide/

causes of suicide are complex and it is rare to find a single cause. For what it’s worth, my previous job involved working through all inquests for two major English regions and in the five years I worked on this, there were no cases of the kind you speculate about.

A lot of us on this board are parents and grandparents and young people’s lives are precious to us. Please give that some thought before you make any future posts.

i did say "one election away", so i wasn't talking about labour. i was talking about the very real possibility of a reform or further right conservative govt in 4 years.

also "No one else is being prescribed dangerous experimental drugs which actually harm their physical health and shorten their lifespan and for which there is no good evidence base, just because they want them."
the new restrictions on puberty blockers are only for trans youth, they will continue to be used for children with precocious puberty and other cancer patients, as they have been for over 40 years.

i also encourage you to read what i actually wrote - i'm not arguing for trans rights to access single sex spaces, or even for any aspect of trans rights at all! I was just saying i think you are overstating the "power" exerted by this group

Yes, the restrictions on the drugs commonly known as "puberty blockers" only concern their off label use for young children who do not have any physical health problems, that's correct.

They can still be prescribed for their correct use to treat actual physical health conditions such as precious puberty, prostate cancer and endometriosis. In these cases they are prescribed sparingly, because the side effects are known to be severe.

It's not discrimination to say we are going to clamp down on the improper use of these drugs which has caused harm to physically healthy but vulnerable children.

Regarding the "trans rights" point more generally, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think most people would agree that this group has an extraordinary amount of power though, and question why this is the case.

GNRHa drugs for cancer are used in late stage prostate cancer, generally as part of end of life care.

Old men at deaths door are not a good comparator when it comes to these drugs being used for healthy children.

i am baffled by the "we are marginalised" mantra, too.
Parkrun receives money from the government for promoting women to take part in sport: but refuses to define a clear category for actual women, and anyone who turns up with a Save Women's Sports t-shirt is given short shrift if not actively excluded.
A hospital lied through their teeth when a woman was raped saying there were no men there - in fact the woman was raped by a man claiming to be a woman
We do not need to go into the countless women who have been harassed and/or disciplined at work for questioning DEI policies/pronouns in sigs etc
Pride flags everywhere, but wom en being prosecuted for tying ribbons in a specific set of colours to a park bench

etc etc etc

"we're being denied access to healthcare"? SERIOUSLY? ask women who have to schlepp round countless doctors for a decade to even get a diagnosis of endometriosis? Denied pain relief during labour? Not taken seriously when reporting levels of pain to a GP? Whose bodies aren't even considered in drug trials because it makes it more complicated for the pharma industry? Who watch while trials of a male pill are halted because [the same side effects that woman are told are ok to put up with] are too much for men to handle? That healthcare?

"we're being denied access to healthcare"? SERIOUSLY? ask women who have to schlepp round countless doctors for a decade to even get a diagnosis of endometriosis? Denied pain relief during labour? Not taken seriously when reporting levels of pain to a GP? Whose bodies aren't even considered in drug trials because it makes it more complicated for the pharma industry? Who watch while trials of a male pill are halted because [the same side effects that woman are told are ok to put up with] are too much for men to handle? That healthcare?"

honestly - im completely with you on this, as someone who has had 3 years of fighting for diagnosis and medical care because i'm a woman in my 40s so every doctor just says "oh its prob just menopause"! I don't think my anger has to be directed at trans people though, or that my struggle negates theirs. I'm angry at systemic sexism and patriarchy in medicine, health care and research funding.