Trans remembrance flags and SNP renews support for LGBTYS

[WandsOut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14226129/Trans-remembrance-flags-flown-public-buildings.html

What is going on here.
Why are they so determined to support LGBTYS and trans young people - who is driving this?

I'm saying we simply don't know the full situation, and this is for a number of reasons, as I have already identified.

You highlight another area there which is relevant for the comparisons some people wish to make with eg women being murdered.

You can (try to) figure out the number of trans people or women being murdered in total, and you can also try to ascertain a motivation / relevant factor...was trans status or female status a motivating factor in the commission of murder?

And that's where it can all get a bit fuzzy... because for eg. Lots of people on this site will say "well the stats for murder of trans people are dominated by workers in the sex industry " as if these should be discounted in some way..., and as if it is a straightforward issue of their working in the sex industry which makes them, like all other sex workers, vulnerable.

But of course we know very well that social factors of exclusion, discrimination and marginalisation of trans people can make safer forms of employment unavailable to them... subsequently pushing them into sex work.

So their trans status is still relevant in the statistics because of the broader factors that are in play.

So: it's a memorial for non-cross-dressing hypothetical trans people around the world, who may or may not be sex workers, but are quite possibly trans, although we can't possibly at all say who they are or how many of them there are?

(But not Tiffany Scott. Who is excluded for some reason.)

Sounds about right @ArabellaScott

Thanks for explaining this better than I did.

Its not just the false reporting of fact when history is transed, but equally bad when it is queered.

Through out history minority groups, non conformists, and those not going with the main stream narrative or central diktaks (Little Red Book) have been persecuted and killed.

It is actually insulting to the lived experience of those at that time, to demand that they be presented as though part of a current western phenoniman cult.

Its like the endless attempt to trans the start of the Stonewall riots.

Couple of points here.

Firstly, whilst the way in which statistics are recorded might make it theoretically difficult for trans murder victims to be visible in those statistics, there is still no real reason to believe that trans people are being murdered without our being aware of it. Most police forces in the country are incredibly, inappropriately pro trans. (Inappropriately because they are supposed to be impartial and not favour any particular group.) If a trans person happened to be murdered, it would be all over the news, like it was when Brianna Ghey was tragically killed. We are constantly being told, including by the police, that trans people are incredibly vulnerable which is why we must be so very kind to them. An actual murder would be evidence of that vulnerability. I simply don't buy the idea that it is being brushed under the carpet and deliberately hidden from statistics.

Secondly, nobody is suggesting that the murder of sex workers isn't tragic. But when talking about the murder rate for trans sex workers in Brazil, your appropriate comparator is non trans sex workers in Brazil. Not the general population. I would hazard a guess that the risk of murder among all sex workers in Brazil is pretty high, because being a sex worker in Brazil is an extremely dangerous occupation.

Thirdly, your point about ascertaining a motivation for a killing is an interesting one for two reasons.

1. The first is that if you are including trans people who were murdered for reasons completely unconnected with their trans status, is that actually telling us anything useful about the vulnerability of trans people? The TDOR website used to publish the underlying data it has used to come up with these numbers, in the form of a spreadsheet detailing each person they had managed to find and their cause of death. Some of them were dubious, to say the least. Is a trans person being fatally shot during a bank robbery evidence of transphobia? I would argue that it is not.
2. The other reason motive is an interesting point relates to how we classify hate crimes in the UK. If someone is a victim of crime and there is evidence that the crime was motivated by the victim having a particular characteristics, the crime is upgraded from regular crime to hate crime and the penalty is more severe. Logically, you'd think that these characteristics ought to be the same protected characteristics that we find in the Equality Act. But they are not. There are only five characteristics which are relevant for the purposes of classifying a crime as a hate crime. Transgender status is one of them, but sex is not. This means that the transphobic killing of a trans woman is considered in law to be a more serious crime than the misogynistic killing of a woman, attracting a harsher punishment. In this sense, it is effectively written into the law that a trans woman's life is worth more than a woman's. I think that's appalling.

In terms of historical accuracy or the basis on which governments, local and central, or institutions celebrate specific days I have made a startling discovery.

I was looking the through the list of UN International Days to see who else has not been acknowledged by the SNP and it would seem the UN does not have an International Day about trans people. See list https://www.un.org/en/observances/list-days-weeks

Although there are references to 31 March.

However the WHO has 17 May - IDAHOBIT - https://may17.org/about/

So whatever the International rights and wrongs of this, it would seem that we can create our own International Days.

I would like to start a Gisele Pelicot International Day in rememberance of women exploited and deceived by their male partners. And when there is a march we should all cut and dye our hair to look like her. Then the term Orange the World (which is currently meaningless) would make some sense!

1,467 femicides were registered in Brazil in 2023.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102023/number-women-victims-homicide-brazil-type/

Well things are being "brushed under the carpet", for eg trans suicides.

Take for example trans teenagers who have killed themselves and have written letters explaining about the challenges they have faced.

These stories are hidden as far as possible to prevent imitative (copycat) suicides, as it is unfortunately the case that young people in similar challenging situations can act in the same way.

So there are responsible journalistic guidelines that are followed which mean these stories do not come to light, which make the general public mistakenly believe that there is not an issue.

Of course there is, but it understandably not coming to light because the most important thing is ensuring other vulnerable teenagers are not in the same situation.

https://jech.bmj.com/content/72/Suppl_1/A24.2

Please don't think you have access to full information, we simply don't.

I am genuinely curious on where you see the distinction being drawn. I'm not aware of any difference myself but I'd be happy to listen to what that might look like.

If you could explain the difference from your point of view I wonder if that might help your points to come across in the way that you're intending them to be heard? I've seen you post on other threads and am aware that you're a trans ally. Would you draw the line at supporting cross-dressers who identify as women? i.e. are they men who identify as women, and therefore different from transwomen?

1,467 femicides were registered in Brazil in 2023.

That's also not the full numbers of murders of women there, just ones which meet a definition of "femicide", it's many more than that (somewhere between 10 and 15k annually)

The trans figures are inflated with accidents and suicides, and don't have to meet the definition of "transphobic"

Thanks, Eresh. Horrifying.

Every suicide is investigated by a coroner. Coroner’s records are public, they are not hidden. There is not an unseen epidemic of suicides in children who identify as trans despite transactivists coaching them they will kill the selves if they don’t get what they want.

Whilst you may or may not be correct about the suicide rate, this is an odd response to my post, which was about murder.

Well things are being "brushed under the carpet", for eg trans suicides.

Take for example trans teenagers who have killed themselves and have written letters explaining about the challenges they have faced.

The figures for all children and young people who take their own lives are recorded. We know that the suicides of children are thankfully extremely rare, and it's often not possible to attribute suicide to one factor. There are lots of threads on FWR which discuss this sensitive issue in depth.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report

Well I have already posted about reasons murders might not be recorded accurately, so you have access to this already.

I am pointing out more generally other issues that come into play with reporting about and public knowledge of harms that come to trans people.

report findings

1 The data do not support the claim that there has been a large rise in suicide in young gender dysphoria patients at the Tavistock.
2 The way that this issue has been discussed on social media has been insensitive, distressing and dangerous, and goes against guidance on safe reporting of suicide.
3 The claims that have been placed in the public domain do not meet basic standards for statistical evidence.
4 There is a need to move away from the perception that puberty-blocking drugs are the main marker of non-judgemental acceptance in this area of health care.
5 We need to ensure high quality data in which everyone has confidence, as the basis of improved safety for this at risk group of young people.

You mean because a trans person could be murdered for being trans despite absolutely no one knowing they were trans?

Hi @BonfireLady, what I was objecting to was cross dressing being used as synonym for being transgender. It’s not.

There are those who cross dress and would not necessarily consider themselves to be transgender.

And there’s no requirement for trans women to wear a particular type of clothing that might be seen as cross dressing or vice versa.

(As an aside, it also feeds into the myth that there is a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a girl, and a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a boy. And I’m guessing that actually the vast majority of both trans allies and GC posters on this forum would disagree with that.)

Referring to trans people just as cross dressers is reductive and ignores the fact that this is about identity- not about what clothes you want to wear.

And also:

"However, there are good reasons to believe that their (young people with gender dysphoria) risk is high compared to other young people. They have often experienced prejudice and intimidation, isolation and family conflict."

You are of course referring to a specific report commissioned after the Cass report, rather the issue of young trans people and suicidality more generally.

As an aside, it also feeds into the myth that there is a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a girl, and a certain way you’re supposed to dress to be a boy. And I’m guessing that actually the vast majority of both trans allies and GC posters on this forum would disagree with that.

There is only one way to be a girl; to be conceived female, be born and not yet have attained adulthood.

Referring to trans people just as cross dressers is reductive and ignores the fact that this is about identity- not about what clothes you want to wear.

Cross dressing is sexual in nature, not simply "wanting to wear clothes". For me, the specific motivation isn't all that important as long as the male in question keeps out of female spaces, as all decent male people do.

Referring to trans people just as cross dressers is reductive and ignores the fact that this is about identity

What does a man base a trans identity on? A man’s fantasy of what they think it is to be a woman based on… what? Stereotypes? Porn? Misogyny?

Trans status could still be a relevant factor in their murder, yes.

We know that this is a cause of discrimination, exclusion and prejudice, which leads to situations of social and economic deprivation, forcing trans people into unsafe circumstances, which then makes them vulnerable to crime including murder.

Their trans status has therefore been instrumental in their death.

You are of course referring to a specific report commissioned after the Cass report, rather the issue of young trans people and suicidality more generally.

I know what the CYP suicide figures have been in recent years and they are too small a sample to provide a picture of "young trans people and suicidality". Thankfully the claimed "suicide attempts" reported in surveys are unsuccessful.

Young people in this cohort are vulnerable because they often have significant comorbidities involving their mental health.