Trans remembrance flags and SNP renews support for LGBTYS

[WandsOut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14226129/Trans-remembrance-flags-flown-public-buildings.html

What is going on here.
Why are they so determined to support LGBTYS and trans young people - who is driving this?

FFS. I am not "angry" at trans people (i am a 2nd wave feminist, i deny the existence of "gender" but i am aware that people may differ on this)

I am frustrated at women's issues, hopes, fears and wishes being stamped on by everyone all the time. We never ever ever get to the front of the queue for anything without being told to let someone else in front in the name of "kindness". And currently one of those groups pushing us further from the front of the queue are so-called trans people. We are 51% of the population - it is time for all the nonsense to stop.

Where there are competing requirements (single sex spaces, women's sports) we have suggested reasonable accommodations - 3rd spaces, an open category etc etc. But it is clear that TRAs and everyone "kindly" advocating for the trans lobby are not interested in that. They just want to trample. And that is it.

I have zero issue with people living their lives, right up to the point that it negatively affects women. And then i push back

This is the kind of stuff being demanded in the name of 'gender affirming care'.

Buckle up, it's a wild ride -

www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

And to point out, this is a branch of a larger, nationwide organisation, which is signposted to by various organisations. Not one individual.

I was going to respond to this by pointing out that, if you read the OP, this thread is not about stopping the trans community from commemorating anything they like.
But the questions in your last paragraph got me thinking.
Several years ago a friend sent me a series of phone messages relating to a memorial service he was participating in on Hallowe'en. There were neopagan elements to the ceremony, which is I think why he thought I'd be interested.

The ceremony was a commemoration of the death of a trans woman who had been killed in horrific circumstances. When I first looked at the photos and ceremony extracts he had sent me I thought, gosh the Brisbane Queer community must be reeling! It was a truly horrific murder, and the ceremony struck me as a healing event. But something about the story of this trans woman's death twigged a memory. And when I looked her up online she had been killed about a decade earlier, in (I think) New Orleans - definitely in the U.S.A. The ceremony wasn't being organised by people who had known this trans woman or anyone immediately connected to the story.
I didn't know what to do with this information. I didn't say anything to my friend other than, that looks like it was very meaningful for you.

I have to say, if it had been a female person whose violent death was being commemorated in a religious type ceremony by a group of male people unconnected with her I'd be interested to know if there was lascivious motivation (it was a pretty intense sounding ceremony and there was plenty of dwelling on graphic detail). But it's not my circus, not my monkey. It's not my business what Queer people in Brisbane do with their time. But I do wonder about what my friend is getting himself into.

What do you mean by their access to healthcare being removed?

Are trans people being turned away from A&E? Denied cancer treatment? Unable to register with a GP? Forced to pay for care which everyone gets for free?

No?

Then their access to healthcare is the same as everyone else's.

No one else is being prescribed dangerous experimental drugs which actually harm their physical health and shorten their lifespan and for which there is no good evidence base, just because they want them.

As for gender reassignment laws being up for debate, well, of course they should be up for debate. No one else has a right to falsify their legal documents. No one else is allowed to use single sex spaces for the opposite sex. No one else is allowed to impinge on the rights of other groups in this way. Of course that should be up for debate. Debating whether trans people actually, maybe, shouldn't have extra rights that no one else has and which have a negative effect on other groups, whether perhaps they should just have exactly the same rights as everyone else and no more, is not evidence that trans people are marginalised. It's a sign that actually they have special privileges that the rest us don't have, and we're allowed to debate whether that should be the case. Trying to tell us it's not up for debate is evidence of the power this group has.

This.

I'm angry at systemic sexism and patriarchy in medicine, health care and research funding.

And for me, gender identity ideology and being told the rights of men with special identities are more important than my rights as a woman is part of the same sexism and patriarchy.

The most interesting thing here is that the rate of attempted suicide in transgender individuals is 40%. This tells us that mental health problems in this community are high. It doesn’t tell us that these problems are caused by being “trans”. If anything, it’s likely that the causal effect is in the other direction.
The full article isn’t free, so I haven’t read it. But it appears to be on media reports on suicides. As far as I know, all suicides are reported to the coroner, who provides the official verdict which informs the statistics.

And yet was it not Stonewall itself that included cross dressers under the “trans umbrella” effectively creating the equivalence?
Though as others have pointed out, they’ve now dropped it, but not before putting the idea into many people’s heads. Tsk tsk.

Though as others have pointed out, they’ve now dropped it

They've only dropped it because those same men now identify as "trans women" or "gender fluid" so it's largely obsolete.

Seeing that transgender identity has been celebrated, lauded, praised and promoted just about everywhere for the last decade, the answer to that is “probably, no”.

What about trans women being prescribed progesterone to make them feel more like a woman, when menopausal women who need it for HRT struggle to get it due to shortages and women suffering from recurrent pregnancy loss can't get it prescribed on the NHS at all.

Fair?

Returning to the topic of flying a flag for trans remembrance day in Scotland.
There are only two named 'Remembrance Days' in the Scottish government's guidance for the flying of flags on official buildings.

One is the national Remembrance Day when the deaths of millions of people is commemorated. This will take place on 9th November 2025.

Just 11 days later, the flags are to be flown again for 'Trans Remembrance Day', commemorating something which does not - by anybody's calculations, anybody's data, anybody's projections, not even suggestionsplease1's or ElleWoods15's - involve multiple violent and tragic deaths on anything resembling the same scale.

It's not a competition but it is a question of proportionality.

The use of the same wording - 'Remembrance Day/Trans Remembrance Day' - and the proximity of the dates suggests an equivalence which is so wildly wrong that I'm not surprised many people find it unacceptable and even distasteful.

I'm from a culture which attaches particular importance to symbols and ceremonies commemorating the dead, and it seems odd to go to such lengths to mark such a small number of deaths (approx 5,000 over 16 years according to TGEU) with a multiplicity of different causes, in various countries and societies, at different times.

Every one of those 5,000 deaths is a tragedy for the bereaved friends and family; but there has to be a rationale for national commemoration, and so far no-one has explained the rationale.

The rationale for singling out one subset of deaths out of so many happening around the world is something which, as PPs have pointed out, is a question for the Scottish government. The fact that the group singled out for official commemoration like this is the transgender community suggests that far from being marginalised in that country, they are privileged by having their own remembrance day marked by flag-flying, less than two weeks after the national Remembrance Day.

'Are trans people being turned away from A&E? Denied cancer treatment? Unable to register with a GP? Forced to pay for care which everyone gets for free?
No?
Then their access to healthcare is the same as everyone else's.'

And rather better than that afforded to women who request a female medical practitioner and are consequently denied medical help for being' transphonic'.

Every one of those 5,000 deaths is a tragedy for the bereaved friends and family; but there has to be a rationale for national commemoration, and so far no-one has explained the rationale.

Yep.

Absolutely this.

Not only do we never get to the front of the queue for kindness, the group of people we are now being ordered to be kind to at the expense of our own needs include people who are threatening to rape and murder us (and even some who have already been convicted of doing so).

It shows where women sit in the pecking order, doesn't it?

After years of Scottish women being told to 'wheesht for Indy', to 'wheesht' for any number of causes and 'we'll sort out women's rights when x, y, z is sorted', they said 'fuck no, we won't wheesht

Which is why that phrase has taken such a hold, in Scotland and other places.

No, we won't wheesht.
No, we won't go to the back of the line.
No, we won't wait until some undefinable time where everything else is sorted.
Just, no.

so far no-one has explained the rationale.

The rationale has been mentioned a few times. It is to promote the narrative, contrary to all evidence, that trans people are more vulnerable and at risk than other groups. Therefore they are deserving of special power and privileges, even if those privileges involve destroying the human rights of others (women) or removing safeguarding. For the Scottish Government, this includes GRR Act, Hate Crimes Bill (which also gives protected status to cross dressers), millions given to LBGTYS and promotion of their charter mark in Schools, their unlawful schools guidance, and their ignoring of any critical voices.

In a similar vein, ‘suicide’ is used to justify giving drugs, that cause huge harm, to very young children as ‘better than them committing suicide’. Drugs that even transactivists struggle to justify without raising the threat of death.

RL has taken me away from the site for a few days.

Disappointing to see the same old guff being trotted out for page after page by the pro day of remembrance people.

Reassuring to see so many others explaining in a concise and clear way why it's not appropriate for public buildings to support one demographic over another.

That people object not to the remembrance of the tiny number of trans murders, but that having a special day for this is supporting the false narrative that says trans people are marginalised and deserving of women's rights.

This argument is false and is damaging to women and so is not appropriate for the government of a supposed democracy to support.

Interesting to note that according to some posters, there's apparently nothing wrong with over inflating stats on trans oppression, but the very action of calling attention to and questioning that phenomenon is apparently 'distasteful'.

I would personally say that describing serious discussions about murder, crime, rights and policy as 'hilarious' shows both
a lack of respect for all the groups involved, and a strange sense of humour.

I would argue that official statistics, which are used to inform policy decisions and determine how public money is spent, should be examined and questioned, and decisions of public bodies should be held to account. Because it's really important for the whole country that good, cost effective decisions are made which reflect reality (rather than a false narrative constructed and replicated by activists).

Exactly this.

A PP asked is my argument that we shouldn't commemorate trans day of remembrance unless there's evidence that trans people are more likely to be murdered?

My argument is that we need some rules. Why would we commemorate a group that is no more likely to die than any other? What triggers the government to commemorate one group but not another.

What message does that send?

What are the rules that determine when a public body will commemorate a day and when it won't?

Because at the moment it seems to be whoever has the ear of government gets their day of choice commemorated.

And that has ramifications, the first of which is it doesn't seem very democratic. What other decisions are the government making that aren't very democratic?

In all of these pages, I still haven't read a good argument as to why the government should choose to mark this day, but not the many others that represent a far bigger proportion of the population.

Surely that gives a certain message about priorities?

I don't know how the discussion became solely about murder rates, because that isn't the purpose of the day - Its about lives lost through violence, discrimination and other inequalities.

This is total scope creep. It was founded to memorialise murdered people. So you are wrong in saying it's the purpose of the day.

Saying "trans murder is not the only purpose of the day" is an attempt to rewrite history to suit your own argument. I'll give the benefit of the doubt that you didn't know much about it.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/transgender-day-of-remembrance-why-we-rememberbb_2166234

Just to add some further information in response to @suggestionsplease1 exceptionally irresponsible comments about teenagers and suicide.
In the UK all child deaths are subject to a statutory Child Death Review process where causation is analysed in depth. It's why Prof Louis Appleby was able to dismiss previous shroud waving allegations from tranactivists about teenagers and suicide in relation to pbs:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report

The determination of adult transactivists to use and weaponise vulnerable children in their pursuit of trans demands is shameful

.

It's worth noting that when we extrapolate the TDOR figures to try to figure out the approximate number of deaths per capita among the trans population and compare it to the number of deaths per capita among the population in general, not only do we tend to see that the rate is lower in the trans population, but we're usually using homicide statistics for the rest of the population when we do so. If we added general suicide and drug related deaths in the rest of the population to that tally the difference would probably be even starker.