Have men rejected TW?

[Realityisreal]

Is the real reason so many men insist TWAW because those same men, rather than being altruistic and concerned about the TW, have actually rejected them as men because they identify so differently and just want to push them away from their own group?

In a nutshell: Are men who spout 'TWAW' really transphobic?

There will always be a risk.

95% of men either won't care or leastways not enough to say or do anything. And the remainder could get really really shitty and maybe violent if there was alcohol around. If I were a TM or TW I would absolutely be on my guard in the men's.

This ^

Men don't go to the Gents to have a chat or to compare clothes or haircuts. They go for a piss, they don't make eye contact, they may or may not wash their hands and they just want to get out of there ASAP.

We're oblivious to what's going on around unless people deliberately draw attention to themselves

As a man I can fully understand and appreciate why women don't want to share toilets, changing rooms and other women only spaces with men - because they feel threatened.

As a man I don't care about biological women using Gents toilets as they don't pose a threat to me.

Regarding TM or TW using Gents toilets and whether they'd be safe, I have no more idea than you. It can sometimes be unsafe going into a Gents wearing the wrong football shirt.

If you are a TM or TW and you decide to use a Gents then I suppose you are taking a bit of a risk - but as I said in a reply to another poster, unless the TM or TW is dressed or behaves outrageously their presence quite possibly wouldn't be noticed.

I suppose this is what unisex facilities are for, but if they aren't available then I see it as a bit of a self-caused problem - and I don't see letting men into women only spaces as a solution to that problem.

Thiis is my male experience ^

I'm sure the vast majority of men know that TW are men and not women. I'm sure those who think otherwise haven't properly considered or thought through all the implications of what TWAW actually means.

As you suggest TW have chosen to be some sort of non-men (not women) and have excluded themselves from being men. It's not other men who have done that.

I think most transmen would be fine. They pass better than TW and to be honest, it's generally frowned upon to pay too much attention to someone else in the men's loos.

Trans women on the other hand, I get why they don't want to be in there. Most of the time they'd be fine, men would go "Whys there a woman in here, oh wait that's not a woman" and get on with it. There are however enough men in the world who will kick the shit out of a TW just for existing that I get why they'd prefer not to use a men's bathroom.

That still doesn't mean they get to use the women's though.

It's not an issue for men because TWs don't encroach on their spaces. Perhaps it would be more enlightening to ask if they think TMAM - but that rarely presents as an issue.

I've been pulled up by three men (and zero women) in a professional context for advocating for women / girls' only spaces in our school. The first was my DHT who warned me I might be in breach of local authority policy and should consult HR before discussing this further. He was protecting me while also virtue signalling to SLT. Privately, I know he's 100% GC and very concerned about men in women's sports.

The second was a friend of DP's -a director of a hospital trust‐ who I approached following the exchange with DHT, to ask how his hospital is approaching policy on spaces segregated according to biological sex. He too is GC privately, but demurred as it occurred to him I might refer to his position in conversation with others.

Finally, a junior colleague complained that he was already having a hard time reconciling his position on TWAW with his Christian faith; whether accepting that we're created perfect in God's eyes means gender reassignment is unnecessary or that TWAW (as in 'which is the perfect bit ‐sex as observed at birth or the later onset of a desire to identify as the opposite sex?'), and he found my campaign for designated segregated and neutral spaces uncharitable.

All captured in their own way. In my experience, some men may say TWAW, but most know what a woman is.

And as for the number of men watching porn featuring TW ‐DB's friend just said it's because it's perceived to be so 'dirty' (in that grim sex-talky kind of way); "the TW is never going to be in any kind of fantasy GF zone, so it's the ultimate in anything goes". This is why I can't stand porn. It debases both viewer and viewee. Such a shitty thing to say ‐we're all still people.

I do think some of the replies above (about TW or TM in the men's) are naive,

Going on my experience, most men are either not interested in you, or are cordial. Then there is a significant minority of men, who probably make everyone's lives a misery, who like to assert their status through violence. Various reasons will serve as an excuse: colour, accent, ethnicity, size, looking at them in a funny way, dress, sex - and being a biological woman in the men's, or being a biological man dressed as female in the men's would absolutely serve as a reason.

The chances of being in the men's at the same time as one of these arseholes at any particular time is low, but you're going to meet one eventually.

I am not suggesting that this is women's problem to solve by allowing access to women's toilets etc but I can see why TW especially will feel vulnerable using men's toilets.

I suspect you're right though without doing a complete inventory of which government passed which laws its hard to say.

But intersectionality is a complete philosophy in itself, and one that is devoted to identifying oppressed groups and trying to reform the structures of society (including language etc) to accommodate them. Feminism became mainstream much earlier but I've yet to hear an explanation as to why the trans movement uses a different philosophy.

Maybe the reason why women are more favourable to trans people than men is because of the historical, and continued oppression of women.

Well aye, as a man wearing glasses, or a pink hoodie, or crocs, or whatever, I'm a target for those kind of men too. Nobody is thrilled about those guys, or having to go where they are, or may be, for a pee.