Have men rejected TW?

[Realityisreal]

Is the real reason so many men insist TWAW because those same men, rather than being altruistic and concerned about the TW, have actually rejected them as men because they identify so differently and just want to push them away from their own group?

In a nutshell: Are men who spout 'TWAW' really transphobic?

Good point.
I think it’s also that they can virtue signal when they actually have no skin in the game, so probably more misogynistic than transphobic. If they can keep the focus on being angry with women for not agreeing TWAW then they can avoid the elephant in the room of why don’t men date trans people.

I do think they definitely don't see them as men, not real men.

Whereas I have no problem seeing women who larp as men as real women.

1. Adult male humans are men.

2. If not male, then must be female.

3. Adult female humans are women.

4. Some men accept that other males are not-men.

5. Therefore they believe not-men are women.

It is inappropriate application of point 2.

I am not a philosopher. No doubt someone will come along and rip my rationale to shreds, but I do think that many men reject as men other men who do not conform to their standards of masculinity, and reassign them to the only alternative: woman. And for the majority that is as far as their thought processes go. Except, of course they know that these men are not actually women, they just accept them as women as far as it does not inconvenience them: not accepting these not-men in their dating pool, for example.

Don't want to shag them though do they.

Yes.

Until they want sex. Then they know the difference.

But are the men who say TWAW prepared to date this variety of woman?

Yes, this is definitely an issue for the transwomen I’ve spoken to - although I’m not sure how much of that is external and how much is internal in their case (they don’t see themselves as real men, and the only alternative they can come up with is that they must be women 🙄)

A huge issue in this area is how to broaden society’s definition of ‘men’ to accept gender non-conforming men as men. As it stands it is very easy for men to include all ‘men like us’ in their definition and everybody else is ‘not-men’ (or ‘not quite human’, depending on your pov)

I think some (many?) men look down on women as inferior, weaker, dominatable. They also look down on the TW. And lump them together in that way.

I think there are some TW who think of themselves this way too. They like feeling inferior, dominatable, and they think this is what a woman is

Trans inclusive in the streets, Terf in the sheets, right?

though a genre of porn featuring these males with breasts which I won’t name because it’ll get me banned, is very popular on p orn hub.

so I think TW are treated as badly as women by some men. Being seen as walking holes is inclusive, mate.

I've always thought that men that claim to be straight but who scream TWAW etc are gay or bisexuals in denial and feel ashamed of it.

They try to justify their arousals by saying the trans women are women, so fancying them doesn't mean they're gay in anyway.
I'd wager their porn consumption includes trans and transvestites somewhere.

There was some polling on this. Men were less likely to say TWAW than women and were generally iffier about the notion that sex-based rights https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/43194-where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights-1

By gender: Women are more likely than men to support greater transgender rights across all questions
Across the board, women are more likely than men to support greater transgender rights.
In fact, the only transgender issue on which men tend to be supportive is that people should be able to socially identify as a different gender to the one they had recorded at birth, by 47% to 33% (a net score of +14). While this may be the most pro-trans stance men take, it is also the one on which they are farthest behind women. More than six in ten women (63%) say people should be able to identify as another gender socially, compared to only 18% who disagree, giving a net score of +45.

I've always thought that men that claim to be straight but who scream TWAW etc are gay or bisexuals in denial and feel ashamed of it

Yep, agree with this.

Indeed. Sex. Or children. [cough cough all those TWAW men who use surrogates]

A guy I used to be friends with said TWAW but no he wouldn't sleep with one as he's not attracted to penis, in the same way he wouldn't sleep with someone who was a nazi, or morbidly obese.
I wish I was making that up.

I'm not sure they're necessarily even closet gay - if a blow up dolls will do, an approximately woman-shaped human being
with an appropriate hole will probably do too. TW on dating sites complain that men just want to shag them, not have relationships.

Straight men don't want to marry male people. Gay men might, but most would probably be put off by boobs or lack of penis. Sad, but they've done this to themselves. Even sadder for those who went into it on a tide of "we can turn you into an attractive woman, only bigots won't think you're a woman". When really when it comes to decisions that affect them personally, pretty much nobody does.

I don't think there's all that many men who actually believe TWAW. Oh they'll say it, because they think that that's the done thing and you might lose your job and get cancelled if you don't toe the line, but they don't believe it. There's very few men who'd have a relationship or sleep with a TW, because at heart we know they're blokes.

I've actually found it a lot easier to change other men's minds on this than women's. Men generally just haven't paid the issue any attention, they parrot TWAW because it's the done thing, and are often surprised to find out that there are men in women's prisons, in women's sport. Men aren't brought up to put everyone else first, to #bekind. We're not so bothered if we hurt someone's feelings by using the "wrong" pronouns. We are bothered about losing our livelihoods, which is why the Stephen Fry's and Keir Starmers are only now starting to stick their heads above the parapet. It's why, while I'm an out and proud TERF at home, with friends or in the pub, I keep my mouth firmly shut at work.

Even TW know that other TW are actually blokes, because of the "transbian" phenomena of them wanting to date women and call themselves "lesbians".

They don't want to date other transwomen, they want to date women.

You know, the real (only) ones.

I do think that many men reject as men other men who do not conform to their standards of masculinity, and reassign them to the only alternative: woman. And for the majority that is as far as their thought processes go.

Yes exactly JellySaurus - I think your numbered argument can be simplified on this basis (and assuming the default is male) to:

1. people are either men or non-men

2. non-masculine men are non-men

3. non-men don't matter, but women are the worst non-men and deserve to be treated like shit

100% do not see them as men.
and I'd even say that some men do not see gay and gender non-confirming men as 'real men'

i know a very lefty/inclusive guy who, behind closed doors, as a 'joke' uses female pronouns/adjectives when talking about his male friends behaving in 'non-masculine' ways.

There's a very old-fashioned trope where people used to call young men girls or worse if they didn't play up to particular standards of courage, readiness for violence or other conduct that were expected. What are you, a man or a rabbit?

This did not mean they thought men who didn't behave in the way they wanted literally weren't men or literally were girls or indeed rabbits. But to be a man was used in an additional sense as meaning someone who showed the properties expected at the time of a male good citizen.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you..."

But maybe some men still mix the two senses.

I see transwomen as men with either dysphoria or AGP. Gay men are men to me as well. I don't even recognise transgender as a thing. Gender is

A) Part of languages in which objects are male or female
B) A socially defined, sex-based role

So to say one has a "gender" has no meaning beyond they are performing a role expected by society of a particular sex. I reject neogenders and "Transgender" is essentially meaningless.

Men have no business in female spaces.

This probably makes me a horrible bloke but I can't make myself believe otherwise.

I've always assumed that a LOT of men have at least some small enjoyment of the idea of themselves as women. They support the idea that TWAW because to do otherwise would be to place some psychological obstacle in the way of their own enjoyment of a mini-fetish around playing with the idea of being female.

Do you remember the Armstrong and Miller sketch trope - "I'm wearing my wife's knickers"? That sketch only worked because the audience instantly recognised the completely mainstream experience of men (many, many men, not just trans-identified men) getting a kick out of playing with the idea of themselves as female.

My brother will state that TWAW. This is because (in his words) "if you chop your dick off and have a fanny, you're a woman"
Apparently women are just holes to him. He refuses to accept that the vast majority of TW retain their penis.
I would quote him on why he doesn't want TW in the males toilets, but it was frankly such derogatory language that it would be deleted.

I disagree.

Well, I agree that some men may well reject the outward presentation of TW as not being masc enough and may not want to share spaces with them.

But men absolutely know that TW are men. The entire success of trans rights ideology rests upon it being a movement that prioritises male sexual rights, operating in a patriarchal society.

TW are not treated as women in society at all. They aren't dismissed, spoken over, ignored or replaced in the work place. They are hugely over represented in the media and countless organisations have bent over backwards to accommodate the demands of TW often at the expense of people who have genuine need. Even the law is mangled for men with special identities. Women, and other marginalised groups could only dream of this kind of treatment.

Women's rights and services were hard won, by the endless, tireless work of women. Trans rights ideology has influenced our institutions of power by TW saying "I want".

I don't think most men (well, most straight men) GAS about TW. After all, they don't really affect other men much. So they don't have to give them a lot of consideration. Although, the times they are a-changin' a bit, and men as well as women are starting to cotton on.