CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

Yeah, Eresh. WHAT ARE YOU?

You lot have really made me laugh - and over use the new emojis 😂

Does anyone remember Steve Martin? Miss M’helmahelmahey!

He carefully chose a beautiful slender body for his beautiful brain, only for her to eat it into plus size.

Realistically, no one with a brain that’s genetically male because it’s in a male body, from conception, can claim to have a woman’s brain.

Well they can, but no one with any sense would actually believe them.

Gee whizz I dunno, most of the brain is autonomous anyway so at the point we can do a body transplant and restore full sensory and motor control then we're clearly past that technical hurdle.

Are you a male person or a female person?

In this context, not trying to alter the body I'd been given. That is all.

A person with a brain that has a great chance of killing me because it is the opposite sex for the body that it is in.

It is an irrelevant exercise because it is unlikely to happen and it bares fuck all significance or comparison for any person's life that has come before or is currently living.

If a person has to resort to this type of science fiction experiment to try to convince anyone that they are the opposite sex, it really does say a great deal about the fuckwittery that is being relied on.

No person is born in the wrong body.
No person has the opposite sex brain.

Whatever you think this exercise is doing, it is not reflecting reality in any way and it does not make womanhood something that any male person can claim.

I'm still struggling with why this is posed as some sort of philosophical conundrum.

Is there some confusion about the meaning of male and female? The words for the two sexes?

I feel like people are being asked "If I turn up to a car dealership driving a Volvo, but leave driving a Volkswagen, what sort of car is that now?"

Volvo and Volkswagen are words for types of car, not types of driver. Even if people have stereotypical views about either.

Isn't it a real life demonstration of the incoherence of this ideology. No intellectual basis, no credible ethical arguments - just intimidation and coercion of women, children and the vulnerable?

we’ve diverted away from the subject, which is sex by deception- as it would be if you were to present as having an opposite sexed body.

But on the wonders of brain transplants, and the extraordinary human body… I was pondering today about being pregnant with my sons. How their brains were literally constructed out of mine, and my brain shrank in the process. I have some male dna debris circulating in my body as a result of carrying them.

How half my DNA was present in my grandmother’s womb, in an egg in the ovary of my unborn mother.

Truly extraordinary.

But what if I was a twin but my female body combined with my male twin's body shortly after conception and I developed as a baby with both large and small gamete production capability?

Who cares? It's just another ridiculous sci-fi scenario like brains in bottles or brain transplants.

Science fiction has absolutely no impact on the fact that it is illegal to deceive a sexual partner about your sex.

Isn't it a real life demonstration of the incoherence of this ideology. No intellectual basis, no credible ethical arguments - just intimidation and coercion of women, children and the vulnerable?

The depths are really being plumbed now with the what if scenarios, desperate stuff.

No male is ever female and no-one should even contemplate deceiving another person about their sex when they are considering a sexual relationship, that's is the beginning, middle and end. No ifs, buts, maybes or pleas for sacred caste status.

Don't lie, mislead or attempt to trick people.

But what if there was, I dunno, some kind of sex planet or sexy multiverse or something where anything goes? Surely that legitimises a quick fumble in the back of a Vauxhall Nova with your fingers crossed?

What if a trans person outs themself to a prospective shag and the prospective shag says “oh, ok, not my thing- sorry, hope you have a nice life.” Is that still transphobic bigotry?

The whataboutery of brain transplants is just that... whataboutery that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand or to the discussion on any male person over about 8 years old having access to the female single sex spaces.

This. If one or more posters don't agree then agitate to get the guidance changed. Good luck with that.

I don't understand how there would be any benefit to trans people obtaining sex by deception if they wanted a long term relationship. Even someone who passes when dressed must have some scars and it must very quickly become obvious in any kind of long term relationship.

The only time I've ever seen a trans person who transitioned so early they could completely pass talking about it, like Butterfly hatched, was Jazz (on I am Jazz). My understanding of Jazz's situation is that not enough penile tissue developed to create the neo-vagina, so there were a lot more surgical problems than normal, as well as post-op complications. Even when enough tissue is used the hole created is not self lubricating, needs regular dilation and wouldn't have the nerve endings and muscles to create anything resembling a female orgasm. Surely it feels/ looks a bit different??

I'm not sure how it would work for more than the briefest of flings. Assuming the sexual partner didn't realise at the time, I can't see how it would be positive if real sex was discussed openly several sexual encounters down the line.

This thread has been very interesting. On one hand there is a view that any deception vitiates (lovely word) consent. On the other hand there is a view that deception as to sex should be acceptable because otherwise there is a risk of rejection (withdrawal of consent). The second hand has been dressed up in many ways to try to make it acceptable but I find myself thinking "Andrew Tate; Incel; ""Your body, my choice""." Not a good look. Sorry, not buying it.

Sexual racism. Report for reprogramming.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/29/if-lesbian-prefers-same-sex-dates-thats-not-bigotry-desire-personal-thing

Getting Deja vu, again.
Have clownfish been mentioned yet?

So you'd use male-only facilities and stay out of women's spaces?

An astute comment.

Ok so we've established that it could be dangerous without appropriate interfaces to ensure homeostatic equilibrium is maintained over long periods, just like the entire concept is fanciful with today's technology to begin with.

However, with AI-powered autosurgery and lab-grown organs already becoming a reality, we might be closer to this kind of scenario than you might expect.

You may be having these conversations about real people within your lifetime.

So, would that make you a man

Or a woman?

I think it's an extremely important definitional point for the discussion at hand and I don't think we can proceed without it.

I think it's an extremely important definitional point for the discussion at hand and I don't think we can proceed without it.

Has got fuck all to do with sex by deception Butters.

Start your own thread. Maybe try a male based forum and ask some other chaps what they think.

This is literally a thread about the legality of embodied existence in people with complex external presentation that may not match that usually expected of their birth sex. I don't see how you can get more relevant?