CPS change the proposed 'sex by deception re gender' legal guidance

[Chariothorses]

Following public objections, the CPS announced yesterday they have changed the proposed legal guidance on Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO), specifically the guidance on “Deception as to gender”, which can be found in Chapter 6 Consent, to 'Deception as to sex'. Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service.

The outcome of the consultation is available here: Consultation on the Deception as to Gender section in the Rape and Serious Sexual Offences (RASSO) legal guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service.

summary of consultation responses here: Consultation on CPS guidance on Deception as to Gender - Summary of Responses | The Crown Prosecution Service.

There are ongoing problems re ideological capture by trans lobbyists and misogyny within the CPS so thanks to all who contributed to the changes they have reluctantly introduced.

A brain transplant (which is never going to happen) = /= SRS or whatever you say is your history at any given moment.

Not disclosing your sex to a potential sexual partner does = sex by deception.

Not a difficult concept or one that requires a 10000000 word essay for most people who don't want to sexually assault someone.

I don't want a 10000000 word essay (please spare me). I want to know if you consider yourself to be male if your brain, with appropriate compatibility and life support modifications to sustain stable long-term bodily function, is in a phenotypically male body.

What are Mumsnet guidelines on using the laughing reaction when someone has said something really, really, REALLY fucking stupid?

is that Not In The Spirit or is it ok?

I think it's an extremely important definitional point for the discussion at hand and I don't think we can proceed without it.

Do you, indeed.

Luckily this board has taught us that 'no' is a complete sentence.

Yes, of course.

No has a brain transplant. No one has had a brain transplant or will have a brain transplant.

It is a weak attempt to leverage in ‘wrong body’ and has nothing to do with not disclosing the sex your (general you) body is before having sex with someone.

Whoever initially devised the brain transplant exercise for this purpose obviously thinks this is a clever exercise, but it is not. This is just another failed analogy. Just like being born in Dudley and moving to Berwick. Just like being female is supposedly “ a constellation of statistically linked attributes - including genotype - that together match a pattern we identify as sex.” These don’t work because they are fatally flawed from the outset.

No one has had a brain transplant.

And what is the only true statement is that any male person can only ever be a male person. They are male in every cell of their body. If they claim to live like are a female person, they are only ever living as their personal conceptualisation of how they believe a female person should or would live.

They live their life navigating the world with a male body and dealing with that body and how society deals with that body. If they make extreme body modifications it is still a male body, just with extreme body modifications. Not a female body. They don’t navigate the world with a female body, only with a male body with extreme body modifications.

A cavity that has been created in a male pubic region is not a vagina. It doesn’t have any role except to insert objects into. It doesn’t even act ‘just like a vagina’. It never has and it never will. It is not a vagina despite some people claiming that it is.

Someone making extreme body modifications to their body does not give that person any right to not disclose their sex to a potential sex partner. A decision which will negate the consent of that partner and mean the sex is not consensual. Because every person has a valid and reasonable expectation to know the sex of the person they are about to have sex with.

No brain transplants. There are No wrong bodies. A modified body is always a modified body. A male person has always interpreted life as a person with a male body their entire life. Even after extreme body modifications.

The logic can never be anything else.

I would really like to know this too.

The problem with the emoji set being used is that people who cannot understand sarcasm or choose not to will believe it is rewarding their behaviour and therefore will continue to post in that way.

You first asked whether it would make you a man, or a woman. You then said that your question was 'whether you would be male'.

Is 'man' interchangeable with 'male', butters?

Can you set out specifically - no room for ambiguity -what you consider a man or woman to be. What is unique to a man that no woman has (or vice versa)? Is it a body type, or is it something else?

If you're asking which word applies, you need to tell us what you say they mean.

I think there is a group in society who will grasp onto any thread of a chance that technology will produce that which they desperately want.

A brain transplant into an opposite sex body is not going to happen in ‘my lifetime’ and if any medical practitioner is telling people this, they need to be never allowed to act as a clinician again. This is extremely unethical to lead people to believe this is even a possibility.

My thought is that now that the Intersex argument is coming to a close, the Wrong Brain argument rises.

Which is fine in a philosophy class but this is the law, and reality.

Any person who pretends they are the opposite sex in order to access sex with someone who would not give their consent if they knew the sex of the person. That is what this law is about.

You are now showing your complete lack of knowledge about biology, medicine and science.
1, a male brain is to large to physically fit in a female skull.
2, a male brain is incapable of regulating not only the hormones of a female body but any of the female only bodily functions such as pregnancy.
3, After decades of failed attempts we are no closer now than in the 1980s to reconnecting and repairing nerves
4, nobody is anywhere near growing a functional organ let alone one viable for transportation in animal trials let alone human trials
5, transplanting organs is completely different from transplanting a brain and nervous system.

Your sci-fi bs has no barring on the current discussion about whether transpeople should be allowed to gain consent to sexual relations by lieing about their biological sex. As such the discussion about obtaining sex by deception can continue without your further derailment perfectly well thanks for the entertainment though

And hey, imagine that transplanted brain also needs a new skull that has been created just to fit that brain so that the brain doesn’t have to be shaved and completely reconfigured to go into that body’s skull. But gosh…. that newly AI grown skull is …. Da da da da! Male shaped to fit a male shaped brain!!!

Gosh!!!

Doesn’t reality suck!

Cross posted with hoardasaurass.

I think there’s a group in society who would prefer to believe in a sci fi fantasy world of lab grown bodies and downloadable brains rather than a society where men need to make any effort to treat other human beings with respect.

I know I keep banging on about this, but there’s so much energy poured into demonising women, whilst nothing is put into addressing things that would make trans people’s lives better- improved relations with police so transphobic assaults are taken seriously (we may be there with that one), a judicial system that punishes those who assault trans people, a general acceptance that that difference should not provoke violence etc- all things I would like to see for women btw. These are the things that have been pushed for in other civil rights movements- hard work, yes, we’re not there yet but things have improved.

Yet none of this is wanted by a cohort of activists who do not want acceptance as being trans but acceptance as the opposite sex. Which is not going to happen across the board.

It always comes down to claims of being unsafe, but when safety is provided (which is fair and right) it’s not good enough. Because there’s still an acknowledgment that your birth sex has relevance. And some people don’t seem happy with that.

Turn your attention to educating men rather than alienating women who should have been supportive but have now grown tired of the bullying.

I couldn't agree more @ApocalipstickNow.

"It always comes down to claims of being unsafe, but when safety is provided (which is fair and right) it’s not good enough. Because there’s still an acknowledgment that your birth sex has relevance. And some people don’t seem happy with that.'

This is very apparent, isn't it?

And also there is this immediate claim for 'safety' while trying to distract from the fact that option that is being proposed is also 'unsafe', but that is an inconvenient lack of safety that also doesn't fit the narrative that they wish to maintain focus on.

Like 'disclosing is unsafe'.... Well, yes.... but 'not disclosing is unsafe' as well. Yet that fact is vitally inconvenient to the narrative that requires someone to be seen as a victim.

Brain transplants....oh boy!

There is hope that advancements in tissue engineering will lead to repaired/regenerated brain tissue, but no neuroscientist is expecting people to survive having their spinal cord severed (to remove/their brain) let alone being able to reconnect billions of neurons. Bonkers!

Brain transplants....oh boy!

Quite.

Throwing everything bar the kitchen sink in to the mix, levels of desperation so immense we now have completely ludicrous wacky sci-fi scenarios and all for what? To argue that one specific cohort of people should be exempt and above the Law that applies to everyone else, that is what is being demanded.

Oh, wacky. I read that wrong.

It is like the implanted uterus discussion but much worse consequences.

The implanted uterus relies on a person being ignorant of all the processing and regulation that is done by the different body systems to create a life in a female body. To make that uterus work requires connectivity that will never occur in a male person - so a foetus becomes a 'lamb in a bag' effectively. And what parent wants that option for another human being to start development and continue any development as a vanity experiment. The 'vanity' part referring to both the parent's and the medical team's actions.

But the 'it's going to happen!' gotchas continue to pour in on that discussion. Now it is seems it is 'brain transplants'.

Let alone keeping the brain and connective tissue viable for the length of time to reconnect those billions of neurons, either connect a skull to fit the brain or to have a brain survive reconditioning to fit a new skull as well!

And to be told it could happen in our lifetime shows a complete dedication to being pseudoscience above reality. It shows just how far someone will go to try to support their philosophical beliefs with 'science'.

If you are trans, you should be up-front about it to potential romantic partners, otherwise it is deceptive.

And I believe trans status should be disclosed before any body-to-body contact (eg kissing, hugging) this is long before sexual intercourse.

In my non medical opinion a brain transplant is much less likely that a complete head transplant. All the connections neatly bundled together in the neck, rather than scooping all manner of stuff out of a skull. In addition 4 major senses wouldn't need re-wiring 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose, and a tongue. Whether the neck is cut above the adam's apple or below would become the next point of fantasy to argue over.
It's wierd that law in existence right now is being debated by examples of something humanity may never achieve. Also the morals and ethics of such procedures havn't got a mention here at all. It's possible that in this magic future that the law has something to say on this matter too. It's possible that even with the magic brain transplant the law could still consider it sex by deception if the other party is uninformed.

And you can't use science fiction to argue against issues of the present day.

There is a common and repeated pattern of attempted obfuscation. Whether it's 'no debate', failing to define terms, conflating identity issues with DSDs, or drawing on what the future might bring - none of these address the issues at hand. Sex is material and matters in life and law.

Slowly, far too slowly, TRAs are running out of road.