The latest fallouts in GC world

[Pluvia]

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

I did not say she had any connection to the Nazis. I said some of the extreme right wing have attended ger events, which is completely true.
I note the implied threat to me though. So much for free speech.
STFU as you are poor, or KJK will sue you.

lol. Smearing women who are protecting their privacy and safeguarding children by pretending they are paid for by the far right, associate with a the far right, have a far right agenda doesn't work anymore.

I said some of the extreme right wing have attended ger events, which is completely true.

All sorts of women and a few men have spoken at the events. They are free to everyone to attend, open mic events. That's the beauty of them. Ordinary women can speak at them, they don't have to have their questions picked arbitrarily or pre submitted.

She's a single issue campaigner and he vowed to safeguard children from the harms of gender ideology. So of course she supports that.

He's probably the fastest route to stopping experimenting on children.

That is the clarity people can't stand. And they blame KJK for her single-mindedness, rather than acknowledge that if the Left, in their craven credulousness, hadn't left this gaping hole for the Trumps of this world to occupy there would be no reason to align 'not experimenting on children' with 'dodgy right-wing populism'.

This version of events by @AlisonDonut is completely wrong. I’ll try another:
Lots of people working in this issue in 2018 had started to realise that kjk was a megalomaniac who would only countenance her way. She is in it for the glory and slags off everyone who even slightly disagrees with her. WPUK disagreed with her and so did loads of other Gc feminists- Kathleen Stock called her a liability. These Gc feminists believed that feminism and left wing politics were just as important as fighting trans ideology.
Others agreed with kjk on principal because they weren’t particularly left wing or feminist.
the key point is that most people agreed with kjk back then but her rancid behaviour since then has meant that only the extremists have stuck by her.
From then on kjk amassed an army of online hooligans who tried to destroy anyone who didn’t show 100% support for everything kjk did. They police everyone else’s words in a manner that is identical to TRAs. They ruin people’s lives. They have been obnoxious to people like jcj because they think she’s too clever and too wordy.

Janice turner is an example. Turner thought the main point about Debbie Hayton was the book, that a transwoman was not happy with self id, that medical transition can destroy lives. Turner got piled on by KJK’s army . As usual kjk incited all the fights . As happens with everyone who objects to speech policing, Turner was told many times that her work in this field was pointless because she used she/her pronouns. Turner objected to this. She was told the only way to operate was to focus on Repealing the GRA and using he/him pronouns. All other work is pointless because it doesn’t follow the kjk model.

the “ultras “ found each other and started to form a cohesive group. The ultras believe that they are making a difference by policing everyone’s speech on twitter. They don’t do any work and they are the ultimate keyboard warriors.

kjk then ran a terrible political campaign which was mostly focused on slagging every Gc person and group off. She received a minuscule number of votes and embarrassed herself. Since then she is seething, as she clearly blamed everyone else for her bad results. She sacked all her stewards.
The ultras have become kjk zealots.
meanwhile jcj appears to have been destroyed by the online attacks and cannot let it go. She is focused on the principals while kjk is focused on beating other GCs. It’s all horrible and divisive and kjk should stop slagging everyone else off. JCJ should probably leave Twitter

Blimey.

Indeed.

TLDR: Alison is correct

kjk amassed an army of online hooligans

I remember the advert well.

"Are you a secret trump supporter who want to inflict destruction on the soc fems gang? Follow me in my rancid ways and keep shouting 'hes a man' to the man who makes school children call him she".

There you go OP. The argument in 2 nutshells. My best advice to you would be steer your group through it as best you can.

I absolutely agree that some of the Twix behaviour focussed on JCJ has been bloody awful, it seemed to ramp up around the KJK US tour which was terrifying. JCJ and a few “soc fems” chose to attack KJK for having “proud boys” as security which wasn’t verified instead of expressing concern and solidarity for the women risking serious harm for speaking. The “Ultra Ultras” took exception to this and a massive Hatchett was shoved in the schism.

Around this time the “Normo’s” were pretty shocked because they felt that they had to pick camps and they just wanted to support women and feel part of a wonderful all encompassing women’s movement. It became polarised and the whole left and right wing element (that had only previously been used by TRA) became a stick to beat the “Normo’s” with and very liberal lefty women were suddenly being called horror of horrors RIGHT WING. You may have noticed on here that people were having to start posts stating their left wing credentials. Then we were told that KJK and her cavorting was actually stopping the “Soc fems” from being invited to join secret labour meetings to influence policy. Which I always thought was a load of old toilet (at this point the fabulous labour women couldn’t even get a stall at the lab conference). Which was around the time of Turners article and everyone got a nice shiny new label to further drive the wedge in.

JCJ has a great voice and she has been treated shittily and she has responded shittily too. KJK is a formidable single issue campaigner and she has done and said things that at best can be described as problematic and at worst bloody insane.

Good luck!

JCJ has a great voice and she has been treated shittily and she has responded shittily too

I was supportive [if not bored but hey ho] up until the issue of the free version of the Radical Notion and I'd say it was more than a shitty response! It must have taken months of planning and £££ of expense for a personal vendetta.

This was published, for free, just weeks before KJK faced down mobs in Australia and NZ. Just to stick the knife in a little further.

It really is quite astonishing.

Such a lot of effort going into trying to stop people who advocate Repeal. Why? I'm not sure we even saw Stonewall and co going to such lengths.

I'd like to know, if the GRA and PC of GR had never been put into law, would those trying to smear advocates for Repeal, be lobbying to put them into law? If not why not? And what's the difference?

I agree that women having to declare their politics and only those with left of centre views being deemed acceptable is one of the ridiculous things of the self ID/ gender identity changing debate. It's trying to force us in to a purity spiral with only those on the left deemed pure but the terms left and right are increasingly meaningless these days and are often more about tribal identity, identity politics and how open people think our borders should be than policies about large v small state and levels of taxation.
We're half the population, it's unsurprising that we share a range of political views and looking at history the "extreme left" regimes (Stalin, Mao) have done as much harm to the people they pretended to represent as the extreme right. I think anyone who thinks their political view is correct and other views are "wrong" shouldn't be anywhere near power

They have been obnoxious to people like jcj because they think she’s too clever and too wordy.

Pure gold.

JCJ did actually make me laugh when she was Tweeting about it, at the time.

She said 'Posie and the Proud Boys' would be a 'bitchin' band name'.

The leading suffragettes and suffragists all had huge rows. In the end all of it didn't matter. Despite slagging each other off they still got the vote while many women just sat it out.

Tough women have opinions and argue with other women with opinions. They can do that and WIN at the same time.

In twenty years time someone will write a thesis about how British women managed to win back their rights despite being outnumbered, having less money and still having huge internal rows.

I don't understand what's going on with the fighting about campaigning to repeal the GRA.

Cards on table, I wouldn't choose to campaign for repeal myself because I can't see it happening in my lifetime and certainly not while the current government is in power. But what I can envisage this government doing is implementing some form of backdoor self ID so I'd rather put what energy and time I have into fighting that. It's a pragmatic approach.

But I wouldn't dream of trying to stop anyone who does want to campaign for Repeal, and in any case, those who do are helping to push the Overton window so wins all round as far as I'm concerned. I'm a bit flummoxed as to why there's so much bad feeling about it.

It's really offensive to normal women to treat us as idiots.

Only one of the women named above -KJK - has given normal women a chance to speak. The others have never done so. More, they have dismissed our fear and our hurt that OUR CHILDREN are being harmed in schools through coercive abusive behaviour such as compelled speech which is anti safeguarding and at a minimum psychologically damaging.

It's so offensive they don't want to talk to women whose daughters have been harmed if they're conservative.

A lot of them seem to not particularly care about children being harmed as far as I can see. They're more concerned with purity politics and their egos.

And I bet you all right now, once this insanity is finally recognized as the child harming bollocks it is, KJK will be the one who swans off into her nice life with her family or pivots to do something else entirely (marketing perhaps). She recognized that Trump being elected would be a fast track to ending the bollocks, and so it has proved. She's the one acting to end it all sooner and putting herself at physical risk and giving any woman a voice, even the ones she doesn't like or doesn't agree with. Actions always speak louder than words.

The more people do, the more they risk doing the wrong things.

I think janice turners feb interview with hayton from a feminist and safeguarding stance was appalling. After reading it, i doubted her understanding of the fundamental problem. But after writing hundreds of articles covering all manner of issues i can see that shes going to have to stand on toes, even mine.

Similarly KJK is actively growing awareness. She has hundreds of hours of interviews and youtube videos. We can all find something we disagree with, or people who agree with her who we wouldnt want near policy writing.

JCJ isnt doing anything. Shes writing the same thing over and over again to the same small audience. Shes never going to set a foot wrong because she doesnt want to appeal to anyone outside her established group.

Having said all that. I think the reason the ultra thing is still a thing is because the men involved. Janice called women ultras, women put it in their twitter names, and it would all have been forgotten in a few weeks. Its the men that have been using it for podcast views, to deflect criticism of their behaviour and their party politics. They are the ones who have kept it going.

I honestly think it stems from how sensitive left wing people are about being branded 'far right'. No-one ever seems to define what 'Far Right' means and while there's a lot to be concerned about with Donald Trump I'm pretty sure we're not looking at an American Reich being put in place. Come back to me in four year's time and we'll see on that one. So left wing people can't bear to be associated with Trump style right-wingers whereas right-wingers will associate with pretty much anyone to get something they want to happen done. As being gender critical is a facet of left wing feminism then you get these terrible schisms. I think they're unavoidable. I'd describe myself as a centre left pragmatist and don't give two hoots if my husband thinks I'm a secret Tory.

If the GRA and repealed and the PC of GR goes, then what's left for those whose livelihoods depend on its existence?

And what are the gains for women and children? Plenty. Parents just want it gone so we can keep our kids safe and spend time on something else.

It's obvious why some want to keep this tension going. But the safety of women and children are not a price worth paying.

I'd describe myself as a centre left pragmatist and don't give two hoots if my husband thinks I'm a secret Tory.

Yes, me too. Although I'd say my DP is further to the right of me.

I'm a bit flummoxed as to why there's so much bad feeling about it.

Same. But I've never quite understood why KJK provokes such long lasting animosity in people.

Personally, I would've thought if someone doesn't like her, they can just ignore her. Likewise if they don't like women campaigning to repeal the GRA, they can just ignore it. It's not going to do any harm.

But I absolutely do think there is room for thinking the impossible, partly because that is exactly how the Overton window gets moved. And many people benefit from the Overton window being moved, who wouldn't have helped move it. (Or wouldn't have approved of the methods).

But also, as I said before, any publicity about the GRA is good publicity. It's a rubbish, sexist, unbelievably bad law.

It absolutely should be front and centre. Talked about, wondered over, fully understood, and people should know exactly how and why it was implemented.

Alongside everything else, of course.

JCJ isnt doing anything. Shes writing the same thing over and over again to the same small audience. Shes never going to set a foot wrong because she doesnt want to appeal to anyone outside her established group. So true.

It is notable that many prominent women e.g. Helen Joyce, have supported KJK at LWS events, condemned violence against her, and have remained more neutral. To some extent it's a storm in a teacup driven by a few women who just have very extreme personal animosity to KJK. Plus those whose egos can't cope when normal women highlight safeguarding concerns. It's a true sign that you don't understand safeguarding if you take discussion of it as a personal attack. With Hayton he used to be a teacher and wrote trans guidelines for schools it's not an academic debate - were his pupils compelled to deny reality and use wrong sex pronouns? Was his validation put above their safeguarding?

I think some of the hatred of KJK is her unashamed love of being a mother and having previously been a SAHM, which unfortunately some women who call themselves feminist look down upon (and also label as right wing). And she instinctively understands the risks to children of GI and tends to prioritise that, it was thinking of the impact on her daughter that got her into this fight.

A lot of the solutions that protect professional women whilst important don't help children in schools.