Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

[Christinapple]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

Do you usually find that this kind of portentous balderdash inspires followers, Butters? Incredible. Then again, Trump's ramblings are equally nonsensical, and look where he is

Were the contents of the library of the institute of sexology not siezed by Nazi activists on the 6th of May 1933 and burned on the 10th of May in the first organised book burning ceremony? Despite the existence of multiple pieces of photographic evidence of this very event?

Was Brianna Ghey not murdered by two children who had discussed transphobic talking points and fantasised about the state of her genitalia and how she would sound as she died, and which was mentioned by Justice Yip multiple times alongside being declared to be a secondary motivating factor?

Was I not directly likened to a serial rapist for not disclosing medical treatment I received in my youth in the very same post that user shared her own horrifying ordeal?

By 'exclusionary strains of feminism', surely don't mean Let Women Speak?

Because barely a week ago you said this

"Nazis salute openly and turn up to your rallies while repeating your slogans. Well fucking done."

This is where the language gets us.

Anyone reading that a poster excluding men from single sex spaces would think, Oh I agree! But what this poster really means is 'exclude men but include a special group of male people who have a philosophical belief that they are female in female single sex spaces'.

Magnus Hirschfeld was both Jewish and gay, so it is completely unsurprising that he was targeted. It is actually more surprising that he wasn't murdered.

Can you name any trans victims of the Holocaust? I asked you this yesterday and as far as I am aware you didn't answer.

Brianna Ghey was murdered by two children who were looking for a vulnerable victim and had identified a list of potential candidates. Brianna was the only trans person on their list, and not even their first choice. I think it is quite likely that Brianna spent a lot of time online rather than out in the real world and was lonely and easily influenced, which is how she ended up becoming their victim. Many or indeed most trans identifying children share these traits; it is what makes them so very vulnerable and more likely to be sucked in by this exploitative ideology.

You were not likened to a serial rapist; people merely pointed out how problematic it is to be "stealth" in the context of sexual relationships.

"Nazis salute openly and turn up to your rallies while repeating your slogans. Well fucking done."

Indeed, and a judge deemed that it was a false statement to align those men with the feminist rally. False and defamatory.

Indeed. To the tune of $300,000.

I wonder if KJK is reading Mumsnet today.

Well, I can answer your last point since I am that user. No. You were not directly likened to a serial rapist. You chose to assume that you, personally, were the reason I wanted to discuss the impact of being molested while unconscious.

You do seem rather prone to assuming that everything anyone says is about you.

I wasn't aware of the earlier thread in which you'd specifically recommended sex by deception. Those who knew about it then drew parallels between your own behaviour and other types of deceptive rape.

I happen to think they made a fair point. But no, when I wrote about Worboys, @ButterflyHatched, I was not writing about you.

You have finally managed to centre yourself in this thread, though, which I suppose is what matters most to your massive ego. Congratulations.

Plus costs, estimated to be in the millions

Exactly.

You have a poster who has repeatedly branded women as bigots and oppressors for not wanting trans women in women's spaces, then denies ever having advocated for men to be allowed in women's spaces.

But Butterfly's claim not to have advocated for men to be allowed in women's spaces relies on the assumption that trans women are women and not men. Butterfly knows that this assumption is hotly contested in general, and strongly opposed by about 95% of the posters on this forum.

As far as we are concerned, if you are advocating for trans women to be allowed in women's spaces, you are advocating for men to be allowed in women's spaces.

And for what it's worth, this is actually true even if you believe that trans women are women. Because in order to allow trans women into women's spaces, we have to allow anyone in. There is no way to legislate for the difference between a trans woman and a man, or enforce a rule based on that difference in real life.

Even if you agreed that trans women should only be allowed to access women's single sex spaces if they have a gender recognition certificate which means their legal sex is female - a stance which trans activists strongly disagree with, by the way - it is not possible to have someone employed to stand on the door of every women's toilet in the country, checking people's IDs to make sure that only people who are legally female can enter.

@ButterflyHatched So finally after a couple of days we have an answer:

I am not advocating for letting men into women's spaces. I do not want that.

So my next question is: If a man tells us he is a woman, should we simply take his word for it and let him into our spaces?

But Butterfly's claim not to have advocated for men to be allowed in women's spaces relies on the assumption that trans women are women and not men. Butterfly knows that this assumption is hotly contested in general, and strongly opposed by about 95% of the posters on this forum.

It is not a ‘hotly contested’ assumption. Men who claim to be ‘trans women’ are men. It is a simple fact. Butters was born a male, is a male and will die a male. However much Butters wishes to the contrary there is nothing Butters can do about that. Butters is also quite clear throughout this thread that he knows he is a man.

Brianna Ghey was murdered by two children who were looking for a vulnerable victim and had identified a list of potential candidates. Brianna was the only trans person on their list, and not even their first choice. I think it is quite likely that Brianna spent a lot of time online rather than out in the real world and was lonely and easily influenced, which is how she ended up becoming their victim. Many or indeed most trans identifying children share these traits; it is what makes them so very vulnerable and more likely to be sucked in by this exploitative ideology.

Having followed the trial closely, I fully agree. And Brianna's mother chose to push for a ban on children accessing social media and better mental health services, which I think is telling on multiple counts.

Yep. Grossly offensive and utterly unnecessary.

Indeed, and a judge deemed that it was a false statement to align those men with the feminist rally. False and defamatory.

Indeed. It may cost Pesutto a seven figure sum ultimately.

I'm so fucking sorry that you have felt compelled to address the unbelievably crass posts made in response to your earlier one.

Thanks, Arabella. This poster does keep showing us who he is, doesn't he.

butters has a real penchant for trying to make out that women's privacy and the safeguarding of children is aligned with the far right.

You don't have to spread rhetoric that encourages the marginalisation and abuse of trans people in order to enable the rise of the far right, but it certainly helps!

I would ask that you please not do the far right's work for them.

You're quite right. Let's defeat the far right by achieving their goals.

who have known links to and funding from shadowy far-right organisations with a well known hate-filled agenda.

Could you tell me where I might find this ' essence' in my body? I would really like to find it.

I would ask (again) that you stop the forced teaming.

You have no part in our feminism

I do not want to hear the answer to this question😱

How do you “practice a form” of femininity? How? Actual women just get on with it.

Essence-bearers. Fucks sake.

Aren’t they talking about some sort of religious belief system?

Essence Definition (OED)

“the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, which determines its character.“

or

”an extract or concentrate obtained from a plant or other matter and used for flavouringor scent.”

Neither fit trans.

I know. Sometimes it just strikes one as so fucking teenage 😄