Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

[Christinapple]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

Nobody is banning healthcare for desperate children.

Puberty blockers aren't healthcare (unless used to treat the actual medical condition of precocious puberty, in which case they are used as sparingly as possible in order to minimise the known serious side effects).

Puberty blockers used in the context of "gender affirming care" are nothing more or less than a macabre, unethical experiment on vulnerable patients who cannot give informed consent to their treatment.

And when you look at some of the people who promote them, you have to ask yourself some serious questions about why those people in particular might have an interest in stopping children's healthy puberty. Such as Jacob Breslow, for example. A self-confessed nonce joining the board of trustees of any children's charity is clearly a massive safeguarding failure. But when the charity they choose to join is one which promotes a completely unevidenced "treatment" pathway which keeps vulnerable teenagers in a pre-pubescent state, that's just

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩.

It would take a lot more than that.

Dude - you're the one saying that looking feminine (through dress/medical/surgical means) is what makes you a woman rather than just being an adult human female - you are the one policing femininity and alleging that it creates an intersection between you and women.

Intersection means overlap. There is no overlap here - femininity isn't required to be a woman. You and I have no intersection within the scope of feminism.

I wonder if he was able to look them in the eye while they tearfully begged him not to destroy their futures.

A modern-day Dickensian scene for the festive season 🎄

These are mainly (not solely) girls, often autistic and subject to social contagion (similar to eating disorders, self harm & other mental health challenges) . They have nothing in common with the middle aged men & groups who've been gaslighting them that a sex change will cure their uncomfortable pubertal bodies.

Parents know that protecting children and teenagers from harm is tough - children frequently embark on impulsive self harming actions and need parents to step up and safeguard them from themselves and the bad fauth actors they encounter (often online).

Of course Steeting met with them. Cass also met with them - and listened. They both know (as women on here do) that these are highly vulnerable, often mentally unwell children who're being influenced by a powerful adult lobby that doesn't have their long term interests at heart.

That's what parents know as we struggle to keep our children safe and supported while allowing them the freedom to make mistakes that won't negatively affect their futures.

The fact that transactivists don't understand or respect this is very telling.

Depends which way Isla dresses, perhaps?

“Pleeeeease let us be sterilised, have our IQ reduced, our bones thinned, and our mental health destroyed by drugs used to treat prostate cancer. Lots of men who never took then have told us we will commit suicide if we don’t get them and even though the studies prove this is totally untrue they have scared us”

I agree with @Christinapple, the transvestigation threads aren't helpful to anyone. And more often than not they're wrong. Thinking of the John Lewis and the Anna Harold threads in particular.

Well, quite.

There are a small number of post-transition males who really do get our perspective but they are the ones who…

a) Have reconciled with the the reality of their birth sex and accepted that sex is immutable (despite having desperately wanted to believe otherwise)

b) Accept that speech policing is bad for the health of society and that people perceiving them as male and subsequently using male pronouns/relationship nouns is a natural part of human interaction.

c) Are willing to speak out against their fellow transfolx in defence of women’s rights and to direct any of their own campaigning or consciousness raising at TRAs & other transitioned people, not at women.

d) Recognise that women’s single sex spaces, services and sports are not for them (and in turn I am willing to stand with them in arguing for additional, single user spaces, similar to disabled spaces but without using up hard won resources for disabled people, on the proviso that those spaces are for anyone who cannot tolerate sharing facilities with their birth sex for any reason - as IMO third spaces shouldn’t be used as a way to introduce a special gender identity status to public policy, at least partly because the ‘othering’ narratives promoted by TRAs contribute to poor mental health in people with trans identities, especially young people with trans identities).

Unfortunately, it seems to take a lot of self reflection for a post-transition person to reach these conclusions and the associated side effects include being ostracised by the majority of the Trans community (because Apostates are always seen as worse than Atheists) and having to battle through the hopelessness of recognising that their own transition has been largely futile (because humans cannot actually change sex).

So shout out to Miranda Yardley for being the first Gender Apostate I came across and TheMaryChu on YouTube, who, after being ostracised by the local trans community for daring to question paediatric gender transition and cancelled from a upcoming music gig at a local pride event, has been on a public journey of unpicking the untruths told by TRAs (including reacting to Magdalen Berns on livestream & discovering that Magdalen was a realist, not a ‘phobe, and rewatching Contrapoints video on JK Rowling and realising that Contra’s arguments are completely disingenuous).

At this point there is barely a Rizla between Mary’s opinions and those of the average FWR poster (Mary still tries to use other people’s chosen pronouns but frequently slips up when their sex is super apparent because: see section B above. Mary is not being hypocritical about this because Mary accepts that most people say what they see, which results in some people calling Mary he and some people using she or they. I fully expect Mary to completely reject preferred pronouns in future because he is currently on the same trajectory that many of us took to this point.

Additional mentions for Corinna Cohn, Leanne Mills, Fionne Orlander, Shapeshifter and Seven Hex who take similar positions (and thinking fondly of @Hamster00 a trans FWR poster some years ago. Advance apologies if I misremembered the username and tagged someone random)

So TLDR: yeah, Not All Transwomen Are Like Butters (NATWALB)

But the ones who aren’t like Butters are a tiny minority, as most transitioned people (male and female) who get to this stage of sex acceptance will detransition to a certain degree, not always possible to detrans medically, sadly.

Agreed. But I wanted to offer BH some hope for the future

Yes there's something quite incredible about grown adults who didn't take puberty blockers saying that children who don't get them are at risk of killing themselves.

Dude, you are quite literally living proof that not getting puberty blockers doesn't make "trans kids" commit suicide. If it did, you wouldn't be here to tell the tale.

The simple solution is for male trans people to stay out of women's spaces then.

Then again, think of Scarlet Blake and Andrew Miller.

The reason people don't trust the media on this subject is because the media has lied to them. And continues to lie.

Apparently the government is banning puberty blockers!

Butters will be pleased to know that children who identify as trans who experience precocious puberty can still access PB on the same terms as children who do not identify as trans - that is for the minimum time necessary to delay puberty until around age 8 (at which point they will be stopped to allow puberty to continue). So no discrimination or denial of health care.

Blimey. More of that hyperbole and emotional manipulation and catastrophising.

"What a resounding victory it is to ban healthcare for desperate children."

A set of drugs that have been found to be harmful to children and has no clear evidence of improving the majority overall mental health of patients in the long term, despite so many unfounded claims, has been banned.

I fully support that children in great distress should be provided healthcare that looks after their mental health. Perhaps now too extreme transgender rights activists will stop leveraging suicide to emotionally manipulate not just policy makers, but ultimately children and their families. Perhaps that will give some immediate relief to very desperate children who have been influenced by adults who have allowed this misinformation to continue to be spread.

"Streeting even had the temerity to meet in secret with many of the children whose future hopes he was about to crush forever. I wonder if he was able to look them in the eye while they tearfully begged him not to destroy their futures."

So, Wes Streeting met with these children? And heard their experiences, and listened to the wide range of medical experts and still was not convinced that these drugs improved the lives of the patients involved.

But apparently, you and others believe that simply by telling of your experiences that your opinions, without other evidence to support, should be considered the ultimate evidence.

But of course, no hyperbole or emotional manipulation or catastrophising is in evidence in this post.... at all....

Bollocks, I came back to edit a link into my mega post above but missed the edit window.

Anyway Butters, should you wish to go away and educate yourself (as many of us were once told to do by TRAs) I recommend you listen 👏 to 👏 trans 👏 people 👏 who take a different position to your own (since you don’t seem capable of hearing female voices):

Mary is a pretty prolific livestreamer so if you don’t fancy any of those there are plenty more clips to watch.

(oh, and dismissing Mary as a ‘pick me’ is about as convincing an argument as calling a bunch of normie lesbians normie middle aged mothers ‘fascists’ so don’t waste your typing finger on that strategy)

The continued disrespect for female people's needs has always extended to leveraging the cohort of female children and young people to support male transition with this poster.

Female transgender people's needs are just ignored.

If Wes Streeting met children who ‘tearfully begged him not to destroy their futures’ then I hope he took a moment to realise that this distress is a result of the harms of allowing trans lobbyists in schools, on the BBC and on the internet and will do something about stopping them too.

Yes, the middle aged men who enjoy having sex and would be horrified at the thought of losing sexual function say it's really important that gender non conforming children never get to experience it when they grow up.

I see that the big guns have been wheeled out.

Trans people were the first and main target of the Nazis!

A lie wrapped up in deceit, with a pretty garnish of bullshit. And still no links to demonstrate gangs of berserk middle aged ladies, savagely intimidating and thrashing poor, meek transw.

I wonder why that could be?

I think this "wrong puberty" idea really needs debunking.

The way it is framed encourages people to believe that puberty is a choice between one option (male) and the other option (female), and that a default option has been selected for you (your sex assigned at birth) but if you take puberty blockers and cross sex hormones you can choose the other option instead. That's how this "time to decide" narrative has come about.

But the reality is that the only choice is between going through puberty or not going through puberty. Either you go through puberty - your puberty, according to your own biological sex, the only puberty you are ever going to get, or you take drugs to stop yourself from ever going through puberty and different drugs (and eventually surgery) to make yourself resemble someone of the opposite sex who has gone through puberty.

But actually going through the opposite sex puberty is not an option and never will be.

So you either go through puberty and become a sexually mature adult, with functioning sex organs, the ability to enjoy sexual pleasure and potentially procreate one day, and with normal brain and bone development. Or you don't.

Those are the only choices.

Ok, glad you recognise that it isn’t the Christian Right Evangelicals that are causing the pushback on trans encroachment of womens rights.

Crediting the achievements of the Feminists and LGB Activists on ‘Terf Island’ to a bunch of mostly white American (and a few British) males (the New Atheists) seems to rather undermine your claim to be an Intersectionalist Feminist.

I mean, it’s not a surprise that you aren’t consistent in your ‘support of all women’ but it’s funny to see you lay out your inconsistencies in real time.

Oh! And hold on a mo, but isn’t transactivist Katy ‘Monty’ Montgomery part of the New Atheist movement? And wasn’t the respected New Atheist YouTuber Rationality Rules ‘cancelled’ for making a video about male sporting advantage? And only allowed back in the fold after repenting his sins, deleting the video and making a new one that argued the total opposite, hostage video style?

Seems like TRAs are pretty influential in the New Atheist movement - so perhaps you could just ask Monty to quash any dissent on that front on your TransEvangelical war?
Maybe Essence of Thought/Ethel Thurston could be Monty’s Sword Bearer?

Hmmm… is this is your admittance that overreaching TRAs are the real reason for the increasing pushback against trans encroachment on womens rights (and free speech/ability to name reality)?

Why did so many Nazis enjoy crossdressing? They enjoyed it so much that they took photos

This is such an important point.
Also, if you miss your puberty window it is lost forever. You can't change your mind at a later date and then go through the puberty you should have started years earlier