A bit of rewriting history going on- MN didn't exist before 2020?

[GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder]

https://x.com/janeclarejones/status/1863356570991743187?s=46

"This is not how the history went. The majority of the faction that is now known as the ultras turned up after 2020, largely in 2022/23. The bulk of the original grassroots of the movement were left wing feminists. That is, what happened is that a group of people who turned up later attacked the core of the original movement who had stood against trans ideology, in the first place, by themselves. And who, quite understandably, were pretty pissed off."

You'd think the fact one of the people involved in the FWS court case was a MNetter, would avoid this selective rewriting of history on who did what & when, as well as why women are still pushing for repeal of the GRA despite all the very learned professionals telling them to stop being so stupid and quiet down on that.

All the early meetings, Venice Allen ones & WPUK, were linked on these very pages, and MNetters made the bulk of the women attending. I remember getting to know people & we all eventually confirmed who we were on MN back then. This attempt to frame women who just won't shut up about repeal of the GRA as Jenny come latelys who had nothing to do with any achievements or wins, when so much of the grassroots movement were women who gathered here, raised consciousness here, organised here & networked here, is just wrong.

I'm getting pretty tired of the narrative being pushed that it's only women who are late to this, who are right wing, bigots, trolls or keyboard warriors who did feck all & have achieved nothing, who keep pushing repeal. I'd much rather the substance of the arguments were tackled instead of the endless high school level rhetoric that follows from someone questioning law fare tactics.

The GRA is bad legislation. It was when it was brought in & remains so now - even more so. Questioning why it is beyond touch is no more an ultra position than refusing to bastardise language or deny reality. But wiping out the place Mumsnet has in the story of how women fought back is a particularly stupid thing to do.

Mumsnet don't even want to be seen as playing the part in this that this place did - they certainly tried to suppress women's language & opinions, and banned lots of women who stood firm. They didn't slope off never to be seen again. They got active & were the backbone of the grassroots movement that's shifted the dial in the U.K.

Just seen dittany left in 2011, so I was here before her leaving. Just for info and to be included in the book/film 😘

For the GRC holding person I know and their GRC holding friends

a) Lock down the GRA - no new GRCs issued
b) Add in a 'removal' clause - so that transmen who get pregnant lose theirs and transwomen who rape or get women pregnant lose theirs
c) Reinstate gender dysphoria as a requirement
backed up with improved funding of talking therapies for the gender confused
d) Require at least one of the sign off doctors to have never worked in a gender clinic

I was looking for mention of dittany.

She raised my consciousness and made me feel uncomfortable (because I wanted to be kind ) and warned of the consequences of giving ground on things like pronouns.

At a guess I'd say that was 2008 or so. I change names all the time but could probably work it out by looking for the thread where I naïvely thought we could keep female and give them woman and she put me right in no uncertain, and prophetic, terms.

Another one here who owes a debt to dittany from 2008 ish through to 2011 ish when a lot of us left MN.

But we still can’t ask if someone has one so can’t deny men access to female spaces? Still have their data recorded as female? Still have them taking our language? Denying women their own category?

To keep your friend happy?

I was on here 2004.

Of course you can ask if a person has a GRC - that myth was set up by Stonewall.

Yes of course GRC holders can be kept out of female spaces - as the law clearly says

The 6000 or so living GRC holders over 40 are not the TRAs
leave them alone.
Let them die off (3378 are over retirement age after all)

I also remember the discussions on here going way back. This is also where I was peaked, a few years before 2020 to be sure. Are the same two sides that are arguing regarding the GRA also the same two sides that have fallen out about whether or not ‘friendly’ TIMs that appear to go along with biological reality should be platformed?

It does come across as who’s in the cool gang at school versus being about the bigger fight for women’s rights in general.

I can't believe dittany left so long ago.

I find JCJ both funny and passionate when she just writes from her gut and beyond turgid and unreadable when she does academic stuff. There's both in The Annals of the Terf Wars.

I definitely fall more into the Julia Long/KJK camp in general.

I think I first noticed what was going o here when threads in AIBU said things like "I will not call a rapist she" and "I know I'm a woman because of my body", which made me go "eh? What?".

I just had a little search and it seems the MN thing has been going on a while https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/1452492-New-Trans-thread-as-requested-by-HQs 2012.

2011 - it was obviously already a talking point for some time.

The threads here on 'feminism' only go back to 2010. Was there much earlier than that?

This thread was posted in 2009 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/other_subjects/737739-Are-there-any-feminists-out-there so it was before the feminism board was created.

I think we got a board called "woman's rights" first. Before that it was just a few long threads.

thanks, both.

I'm a bit like this about pronouns. I think that they should never be mandated, but as far as individuals using prefered pronouns, there are a lot of complicated situations now that have to be navigated on a one off basis, and in the end, I think they will universally, or almost universally, stop being a thing anyway. If they remain it will be in small closed groups where it is understood not to be meant literally.

Once it's made clear it can't be required, or pressure put on people in schools and work, the rest will follow eventually.

Most of JCJ's ire seems to have been directed at me last week on Twitter bizarrely. I've been accused of being behind all the online abuse she's received and it's been implied I'm responsible for WPUK folding. I wonder where I found the time?

PS I started the first trans widows thread in 2017.

I think I turned up here about 2006-7 - could no longer cope with huns and missed good conversation in the real world. But I am not sure feminist issues were so prevalent then.

They are TRAs as they are men demanding we pretend they are women. They take women’s places on public boards, women’s prizes, female clubs like WI, lesbian dating sites, destroy women’s data collection, destroy women’s language. Why should we be expected to accept having the meaning of our sex category destroyed?

It is not for you to give away the language women use to describe ourselves. I agree with ReemAlsalem; the use of female pronouns to describe men is violence against women.

I think everyone has changed their minds as they go on this journey. I don’t think anyone on here wakes up and is anti trans rights. It’s a journey of ‘what’s the problem’, to yes that’s a bit of a problem, to surely people / organisations can be sensible, to nope they can’t, to wow there’s a lot of people abusing this to get round safe guarding… to the final conclusion that the yes answer is too long and no one has the common sense to apply it properly or the decency to listen. So the short answer is just going to have to be no. Which is sad. I get it. And I remember a decade ago that was the part that made me most angry. I knew this would eventually get sorted for women and girls. The disjustice, anger, fear everything we felt was temporary. But that there was a whole cohort of young people who were transitioning based on these lies that adults were telling them, and that when the tide turned their feelings of despair wouldn’t be temporary. That is so fucking wrong. I cannot get over how supposed intelligent brain owning adults thought that was acceptable to do to a young vulnerable cohort.

There was lots of feminist conversation on MN before the dedicated board was set up. It was precisely because feminist discussion was thriving so much on MN that some posters from within those conversations asked for a dedicated board.

I can remember that there was a little bit of sadness about that. There was a feeling that the whole of MN was a feminist space -- because it was a woman's space in a very male-dominated internet. And consequently there was a fear that the creation of a dedicated feminist board within MN was a corralling of feminism, a downgrading of the feminist status of the rest of the forum.

Sure enough, feminism did start to feel a little less tolerated in the forum as a whole. There started to be a feeling that if you wanted to post from a feminist perspective you should be carrying yourself over to the appointed topic.
And the feminist board that was created almost immediately became a rather vexed place with loads of anger and several splitting upinto sub-topics to try and smooth over divisions -- this was even before trans-related discussions featured much.

I'm sorry, I am allowed to have an opinion on how things will pan out with this over time or any other issue, and what is likely to be effective and what isn't at achieving end goals.

Feel free to say whatever you like when words come out of your own mouth.

The 2012 thread has really brought back memories. The amount of time and energy the feminists of MN had to dedicate to soothing Kim's outrageous ego and talking Kim down from the endless 'you don't like me? I'll just go and kill myself then!!!!' narcissistic outbursts. Really the whole TRA movement in minature.