A bit of rewriting history going on- MN didn't exist before 2020?

[GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder]

https://x.com/janeclarejones/status/1863356570991743187?s=46

"This is not how the history went. The majority of the faction that is now known as the ultras turned up after 2020, largely in 2022/23. The bulk of the original grassroots of the movement were left wing feminists. That is, what happened is that a group of people who turned up later attacked the core of the original movement who had stood against trans ideology, in the first place, by themselves. And who, quite understandably, were pretty pissed off."

You'd think the fact one of the people involved in the FWS court case was a MNetter, would avoid this selective rewriting of history on who did what & when, as well as why women are still pushing for repeal of the GRA despite all the very learned professionals telling them to stop being so stupid and quiet down on that.

All the early meetings, Venice Allen ones & WPUK, were linked on these very pages, and MNetters made the bulk of the women attending. I remember getting to know people & we all eventually confirmed who we were on MN back then. This attempt to frame women who just won't shut up about repeal of the GRA as Jenny come latelys who had nothing to do with any achievements or wins, when so much of the grassroots movement were women who gathered here, raised consciousness here, organised here & networked here, is just wrong.

I'm getting pretty tired of the narrative being pushed that it's only women who are late to this, who are right wing, bigots, trolls or keyboard warriors who did feck all & have achieved nothing, who keep pushing repeal. I'd much rather the substance of the arguments were tackled instead of the endless high school level rhetoric that follows from someone questioning law fare tactics.

The GRA is bad legislation. It was when it was brought in & remains so now - even more so. Questioning why it is beyond touch is no more an ultra position than refusing to bastardise language or deny reality. But wiping out the place Mumsnet has in the story of how women fought back is a particularly stupid thing to do.

Mumsnet don't even want to be seen as playing the part in this that this place did - they certainly tried to suppress women's language & opinions, and banned lots of women who stood firm. They didn't slope off never to be seen again. They got active & were the backbone of the grassroots movement that's shifted the dial in the U.K.

If that's addressed to me I was quoting what JCJ had tweeted.

No the original origin was left wing lesbians who were fed up of lesbian groups being invaded.
This issue and meetings, events and campaigns have existed before MN existed.

It used to be an amazing place for intelligent female conversation, probably like the Salons of prior centuries. I have to pick and choose a bit more now.

@AdventCarols
Replacing one piece of legislation (the Disability Discrimination Act) with a more comprehensive one that goes further (Equality Act 2010)
is very very different from repealing an act and leaving nothing in its place.

The GRA will not vanish in a puff of smoke.
Something will replace it to "protect" the current GRC holders.

He seems cross, the bloke in the link!
🤣

No the original origin was left wing lesbians who were fed up of lesbian groups being invaded.
This issue and meetings, events and campaigns have existed before MN existed.

The original, going back to Women's Liberation, movement was in fact trying to escape both the left and as bad but different, academic feminists, who like socialist feminists presumed to tell women what they should say and think.

But agree that in terms of grassroots activism, most of which was (and still is) set up by working class and Black women and lesbians. ie women's refuges before it became federated.

When we used to have Women's Liberation Marches.

Women in universities and TUs would be having seminars to dispense their superior wisdom ( and trying to recruit) to passive audiences.

Apart from media feminism, which is a whole other mis-direction, academic feminism has been an endless diversion with little lasting benefit.

The banning of LangCleg was a particularly dishonourable moment on MN. Some of the convoluted FWR special rules were ludicrous.

However, all credit for MN for not bowing to pressure to boot us all out. That pressure must have been pretty godawful.

I learned all I knew in the beginning from MN and thought I got involved in 2017 but I was on here before the Spartacus thread so it was even earlier than I thought.

We do ourselves no favours bickering within and it annoys me that some people position themselves as the arbiter of whose involvement counts.

Everyone's opinion is just as valid as anyone else, albeit we have some stellar, erudite and knowledgeable people who have led the charge on many fronts.

I’ve been here (in various guises) since the Vanity Fair cover, so 2014 It’s amazing how consistently the same answer is given to “what was your initial reaction to the Vanity Fair cover?”

I got deleted around 2020 for using the phrasing “she took the cable car to peak trans”.

But in 2024, I felt like I was late to the game.

edit: obviously 2014

I'm not in the camp of wanting to actively campaign to repeal the GRA.

I see the GRA through the lens of it not really working and it being at odds with other areas of the law.

And in that sense, even if you are supportive of transition rights it doesn't really service trans people and their best interests well as a result.

It strikes me that ultimately it's going to come to a head legally and have a natural end point without much need for campaigning. So why bother?

Does this make me an ultra for foreseeing the Legal Equivalent of a Space Time Paradox?

I don't think it does.

I'm more into political realities and how they always ultimately play out.

Why does something need to protect current GRC holders? Perpetuate a lie? The fact that something is difficult or rare doesn’t mean it is not the right thing.

In your mind, what would a Gender Recognition Act that ‘worked’ look like?

Now THAT'S a question and a half...

Pass.

So you think it doesn’t work, can’t think of how it could work, but don’t think it should be repealed?

I think campaigning to repeal it, is a mistake.

Why?

Because backlash.

I think, at this point, using the law to uphold women's rights and pursue protecting women's rights is the smart move.

It has the most capital with the public at large. There's support for it which is fairly broad.

I'd rather let the GRA will collapse under the weight of its own bullshit rather than go headlong into the trap of direct confrontation.

The net result might ultimately be same outcome on terms of the GRA, but I think there are different outcomes for women as a whole. And actually for those identifying as trans too - keeping in mind the high percentage who are actually pretty vulnerable and are being potentially exploited by others. A direct conflict serves no one but the most hardline right wingers and misogynists.

I think what we’re seeing is division caused by the professionalisation of Gender Critical work by people who are happy to work within the current system as opposed to people who aren’t professional but volunteers, to whom this matters on a personal level and to whom compromise on women’s rights is inimical.

Dittany left MN in 2011. It was she who peaked me and also made me realise that the GRA had to go if women's rights had any meaning. 2020, pah.

If I'm honest, I don't really understand the left/right tribalism in the context of feminism.

Happily digging about in the archives.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2753653-Asking-the-government-to-be-a-wee-bit-gender-critical

2016

Also 2016: a 1000 post thread on self ID:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2734911-Consquences-of-self-identification

I didn't realise that was so long ago. She educated so many in ways I don't think she'll ever know or understand. She's a massive loss & god, I'd love to have had her voice on here when the whole thing exploded.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/1481205-Radfem2012-banning-trans-people?page=1 this is a fun read down memory lane. I remember posting on the thread aware that I'd been lurking in agreement for at least a year before posting myself. Ah- it looks like the days before TERF was coined. I'm another one who was radicalised in the Mumsnet portal with particular admiration for Dittany. I remember reading the logic set out and thinking "yes I can see why you think it could head that way but it won't get to that surely? Surely? "

I have the original screenshots which I never post because they have names of women on there. But yes I have them.

Wow, imagine the Guardian publishing Sheila Jeffreys these days? I've gone so far back in time that I'm back in time before the upside-down.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/29/transgenderism-hate-speech

For a number of posters on those threads brought back to life by thread archaeologists, it would be fascinating to know if some of the posters had changed their minds as experience revealed that so many of the apprehensions came to pass.

Meh, call me any damn name you choose, I know where I was pre 2020, I've been on here since at least 2015. And having this conversation since 2002 give or take.

So long as we are actually getting somewhere and things are going in the right direction, I can not bring myself to care what some random people want to label me. Knock yourselves out, just get rid of the gra