A bit of rewriting history going on- MN didn't exist before 2020?

[GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder]

https://x.com/janeclarejones/status/1863356570991743187?s=46

"This is not how the history went. The majority of the faction that is now known as the ultras turned up after 2020, largely in 2022/23. The bulk of the original grassroots of the movement were left wing feminists. That is, what happened is that a group of people who turned up later attacked the core of the original movement who had stood against trans ideology, in the first place, by themselves. And who, quite understandably, were pretty pissed off."

You'd think the fact one of the people involved in the FWS court case was a MNetter, would avoid this selective rewriting of history on who did what & when, as well as why women are still pushing for repeal of the GRA despite all the very learned professionals telling them to stop being so stupid and quiet down on that.

All the early meetings, Venice Allen ones & WPUK, were linked on these very pages, and MNetters made the bulk of the women attending. I remember getting to know people & we all eventually confirmed who we were on MN back then. This attempt to frame women who just won't shut up about repeal of the GRA as Jenny come latelys who had nothing to do with any achievements or wins, when so much of the grassroots movement were women who gathered here, raised consciousness here, organised here & networked here, is just wrong.

I'm getting pretty tired of the narrative being pushed that it's only women who are late to this, who are right wing, bigots, trolls or keyboard warriors who did feck all & have achieved nothing, who keep pushing repeal. I'd much rather the substance of the arguments were tackled instead of the endless high school level rhetoric that follows from someone questioning law fare tactics.

The GRA is bad legislation. It was when it was brought in & remains so now - even more so. Questioning why it is beyond touch is no more an ultra position than refusing to bastardise language or deny reality. But wiping out the place Mumsnet has in the story of how women fought back is a particularly stupid thing to do.

Mumsnet don't even want to be seen as playing the part in this that this place did - they certainly tried to suppress women's language & opinions, and banned lots of women who stood firm. They didn't slope off never to be seen again. They got active & were the backbone of the grassroots movement that's shifted the dial in the U.K.

I first heard of MN back in about 2020 as a hotbed of "bigotry and transphobia". I recall vaguely wondering why a chat forum where mums gathered was so bad but didn't think more of it.

So it was definitely on form prior to 2020!

When I first came here and started reading, I was so impressed by the level of clarity on gender ideology and the intelligent discussion. I was intimidated to be fair, it took me a while of lurking and reading before I posted anything.

So glad I found this place.

Am I missing something? She doesn't mention Mumsnet.

I'd agree that many of the "ultras" were around back in 2017, including Venice Allen.

That all sounds very playground politics. ‘We were here first, go somewhere else to play’

JKJ does like to control the narrative. She likes to pretend it was all her and her cronies and the meanie ultras are the latecomers to the party.

Rather than it being the complete opposite way around.

It just highlights how siloed women like JCJ are that they are so ignorant and dismissive of the women doing stuff before they came along.

Well it was definitely here and thriving when I looked in, probably around 2017.

When I think of the number of us who responded to the Miller consultation and so many others…

The MN support for gardening that resulted in Employment Tribunals…

Women being invisible to other women or being invisibilised by them (apologies to Crompton and Just William).

I realise that lots of threads have disappeared because of the moderation in Ages Past but it would be very poor cyber archaeology to deny they existed before, JCJ.

Bringing this back to help date how this grew here - from 2016

TransAgenda BullShit: The I am Spartacus Thread http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716595-TransAgenda-BullShit-The-I-am-Spartacus-Thread

There are always those who knew before it broke here & they don't get enough credit. But it's a bit rich to claim it was only left wing feminists who cared & got of their arses to do something. MN is a broad church & the pushback was apolitical in that respect. So many groups sprang up from this place. The increased exposure from here has made a huge impact & it shouldn't be written out of the history of the resurgence of a grassroots women's rights movement.

Looking back, quite a lot of posts would be deemed 'ultra' in 2024.

😏

Who are the meanie ultras?

Tried to get my head around that Twitter thread. Couldn’t make head nor tail of it.

I did a stint about a decade ago in the times of Datun and langcleg before passing the baton on. Frustrating as hell but we did break down barriers in dangerous times. It was a chaotic time. I have wondered what a book written about those times would look like. Pure insanity of cotton ceilings to lady brain's to the darkness of murderous park runners and women assaulted being forced to refer to their male attackers as she in court 😵‍💫

It is a hidden time in women’s history. Unless you were there I’m not sure it can ever be recorded or portrayed realistically.

On that Twitter thread I did find this linked article from Paris lees in 2014 https://www.vice.com/en/article/paris-lees-terf-war-twitter-radical-feminists-088/

No wonder we had such a tough time. Trying to talk rationally with a bunch of narcissistic adult children 😭

There has been a history written of it already: The Politicization of Mumsnet by Sarah Pedersen. Published October 2020, she did a webinar on MN during Covid. Worth a read.

I'm quoted in that book - under my previous account so I can't even point anyone to it 😁

Yes to Pedersen's book. iirc, several of us are quoted (without our user names) in Pedersen's paper discussed

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4512657-The-answer-Is-Mumsnet-I-believe?

and

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4478528-theyve-got-an-absolute-army-behind-them-womens-cooperative-constellation-in-Scotland

Who are the meanie ultras?

It might depend on whether there's a division around before and after Janice Turner used the term "ultras".

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4999528-4999528-janice-turner-interview-with-debbie-hayton-in-the-times?page=1

Was on here 2008!.

Hmm, I've been on FWR since 2017 and today would be considered an 'ultra'. The boards were busy back then and haven't stopped since.

My understanding of events online are that Michael Foran and JCJ, and a few others, have been lecturing on TwiX over the last few days that people disagreeing with them on issues like repealing GRA 2004 or amending EA 2010 (or about the use of language in the gender debate) are Ultras.

Whether she meant to or not, Janice Turner has given the world a new term to use to denigrate women who do not agree with compromise on women’s rights. And now, any time a woman disagrees with one of the so-called “Acceptable Faces” of gender criticism, she gets labelled an Ultra and dismissed.

This sneering at women (and men) who want to hold the line is getting tiresome and I won’t be treated, by these people who label other as Ultras, as if they are my betters.

It’s a civic/public debate and a wide range of opinions is allowed, as is disagreement!

Oops, this was supposed to be a reply to your question Crafty, the quote function didn’t work for some reason.

I don't at all mean to disrespect the passion lying behind the posts on this thread. I'm sure there are some very genuine hurts and histories here, but (perhaps because I abandoned Twitter a couple of years ago), these divisions really are a closed book to me, even though I actively follow trans-related issues on MN and in the news, and have been an MNer for 17 years.

It seems awful, really distressing for the people involved, that there is a factionalism here that adds hurt on top of the already massive hurt generated by the trans debate itself.

But could it be that this controversy is simply the bruising nature of social media, and that it has quite a small relevance for the wider political struggle for women's rights and against transactivism? Twitter is positively disastrous for mental wellbeing at the best of times.

So what we're saying here (words of one syllable please) is that if you are left wing, and think that the definition-of-a-woman case is more easily won than repealing the GRA, is you aren't a real GC feminist?
But people who don't call themselves feminist are proper feminists anyway?
Colour me confused.

"But could it be that this controversy is simply the bruising nature of social media, and that it has quite a small relevance for the wider political struggle for women's rights and against transactivism? Twitter is positively disastrous for mental wellbeing at the best of times."

I think that's what lies at the heart of this - a tendency to develop a bunker mentality over criticism that's then conflated with abuse & throwing out various accusations & claims at people that effectively retcon what's happened & how we got here.

I’m pretty sure the Tara Hudson case was discussed on here, and that was 2015.

I'll take it as a positive sign that people are now sharpening their elbows to jostle for position in a movement that has grown from tiny pockets of resistance to a massive international wave of reasonable people believing in material reality (but more importantly, feeling increasingly comfortable stating it).

We got here by many women putting their own careers and wellbeing at risk. Hopefully there is less risk now, after so many precedents have been hard won by brave, bold and tenacious women. Still work to be done. On we go.

yy Arabella, onwards.

It was always a coalition and continues to be one. Coalitions can work well, of all the kinds of politics available, GCs are surely not about to fall prey to binary thinking?!

That’s a really good point Arabella.