Real life scenario, how would you respond?

[MotherEarthisaTerf]

Just curious how many GC women do react when there is a male in a female safe space? Have you ever glared, or said anything?

eg department store changing rooms, public bathrooms?

this isn’t something I’ve come across but I’ll be honest, I’m unlikely to react past a judgemental look.

The law is unclear, to be honest.

The Equality Act makes provision for exemptions that allow single sex spaces for reasons of privacy, dignity, and safety.

But it's not clear whether men with a special certificate are counted as female. See ForWomenScotland's upcoming court case.

Careful. Your misogyny is showing

Try writing to 2 new directors - Charlie Field and Jayne Wall.

The few times I've been 'challenged' 'Oi, this is the Ladies!' because I don't look 'feminine', I've just smiled and raised an eyebrow and said 'Try again!'
and was immediately recognised as a woman - partly because I don't really look like a bloke, and partly because my response was non-bloke-ish.

In short, it happened, but they weren't major incidents, it was resolved in a few seconds because women tend to be able to recognise women even if their first fleeting glance misleads them.

I love Mmmnotsure's reaction:
saying loudly in what sounded ridiculously like Maggie Smith in Downton Abbey, “Well, one of us is in the wrong place!"
I'd be very pleased with myself if my reactions were that quick, Mmmnotsure, that's the sort of thing I think of the next fecking day - what Voltaire or Diderot or one of that crowd* called 'l'esprit de l'escalier' - the witty thing you think of on your way home from the dinner party🙄

*I felt obliged to google it, as this is such an erudite board! It's a paraphrase of something that Diderot said.

But, equally, if the man in the loos has approached me or regarded me with (what I perceive to be) menace, I’m allowed to scream, surely.

I’m just trying to imagine a shift in balance here. Because I like a bit of hope to offset the despair.

If the men fear being accused of being menacing, might the power balance begin to shift a little.

People are not male or female based on whether they conform to gender roles. That's not what we're looking at. And the vast majority of the time, in real life, it's easy to distinguish.

It's the genderists who think people are male or female based on gender roles or gender feels.

And nobody wants to see your genitals. Sorry if that's disappointing.

Male people assuming a female identity and entering female only spaces are behaving inappropriately.

They are enacting a sexist idea of womanhood.

They are putting their own desires above women's comfort.

They are treating women's needs as unimportant.

Women are complete human beings in our own right. My bar for respecting women is higher than just "did not actually sexually abuse me". Why is yours not?

HTH

And having no clue what a fool they’re making of themselves.

You're wrong.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8474840/

There are 2 men who use the women’s showers at work. They have them to themselves now. Women self exclude.

I used use them after early morning gym, small studio no facilities. I clean up best I can but no shower

Such a pity that womans privacy dignity & safety doesn’t matter any more,

I say nothing because I'm very aware that I'd be shouted at or worse by 'her' friends.
It's common now to see this in toilets when out in London and I do think I'd feel more strongly about saying something if I had a daughter in there with me.

I went for a swim at a hotel pool. Finished, went to get changed in the (women's) changing rooms - no one else around (it was 9pm) Popped into the loo and as I walked out the cubicle (naked BUT with a towel covering my areas - thank goodness) came face to face with a young man who feigned surprise, said 'sorry' and walked away. Reported immediately to the reception staff who checked CCTV but said they couldn't see anything. (Almost acted like I was confused) I was in so much shock I didn't react too much but looking back, I don't feel like the hotel took it as seriously as they should have done.

Have you raised this with anyone at work?

Any chance it could have been a mistake by the young man?

I tend to be attracted to very butch lesbians, and over the years I've had several girlfriends who have reported being asked if they were in the right toilets. None of them felt offended, they seemed a bit chuffed to have appeared masculine enough to raise doubts.

I was present on two occasions when it happened and both times my 6 foot tall girlfriend wasn't upset. She just smiled and said "Yes, I'm a woman. Don't feel embarrassed, you're not the first to wonder." She was tickled by it, and as soon as she spoke (and smiled that lovely smile) the idea that she might be a man evaporated. She understood the importance of keeping single sex spaces safe, and appreciated the fact that other (sometimes tiny) women were brave enough to challenge an intruder.

as soon as she spoke (and smiled that lovely smile) the idea that she might be a man evaporated.
Awwww, that's so sweet, made me smile too😍

That isn't an argument for trans women to use female spaces, it's an arguement not to have separate men's and women's spaces in the first place.

Fine if that is your position.

But if that is your position why aren't you campaigning to make all facilities and spaces mixed sex? Why just focus on the demands of one particular subset of men to be given cross sex rights because they comply with sexist ideas about womanhood?

That "SAHM in the mall toilets" you so disparagingly mention isn't examining a skeleton at archaeological dig.

She's observing a real life human being in real time. We've evolved to evaluate our safety continuously, and we're pretty instinctive in spotting the sex of people in front of us.

Don't be so disingenuous. Nobody's buying it.

I had a woman complain to a security guard that I had a male in female toilets. It was my small and not even begun puberty 10 year old learning & physically disabled boy who needs support. The disabled toilet was out of service. She actually went and found security & pointed to us.
It was obvious from her clothing that she was from a culture with some issues about males in female spaces. She & security guard needed a punch in the face as they 100% thought I was in the wrong and I had to endure a talking to even though I think I was 100% correct to support a disabled boy to use a toilet where there is a door and 100% privacy inside a cubicle.

I feel that there is a bias for the “delicate” ladies from this culture, but not for the women & girls of my culture.

Contrast to the creepy guys in Desigual at shopping mall mixed changing rooms with too small curtains there watching teenaged girls. The changing room staff won’t let mum in with daughter for safeguarding so mum has to bring an item in and getown change room to keep pre-teen daughter safe.
These guys not even pretending to try clothes … staff couldn’t give a darn. I swear they from same culture as the ladies from the bathroom.

@pumpkinpillow I initially thought that, but when I went to reception just to make them aware, it literally felt like they were gaslighting me. "Oh, we will check the CCTV - look there is no one entering the ladies changing room at all. Are you sure?" It was probably their response that took any 'innocence' away from the situation. Also, the timing of the 'accident' I was just coming out of the loos, which also included the shower area - it was a stroke of luck that I had a towel around me. It wasn't like he had just walked in to the changing room. He must have already been in there. With hindsight, It started to feel very engineered and uncomfortable. I've put it down to experience.

I’d avoid eye contact, and leave sharpish. I’m not frightened of trans people, I am very wary of men though, because of trauma I’ve experienced. My world is very small now, so it’s not likely to happen to me (I only go to ‘safe’ places).

This happened to me quite recently. I was in the ladies toilets at the local theatre - had been to the loo in a cubicle and came out to find a large, provocatively dressed man at the sink, preening. My teenage daughter didn't miss a beat and asked him (politely of course) if he needed help finding the men's toilets. There was a few seconds of stand off before he left.

If she hadn't have got there first I would have probably said something too as it made me feel uncomfortable. My daughter is quite GC generally, but I think that what annoyed her in this particular situation was the fact that she was having to stand by and wait whilst someone that really shouldn't have been there made a performance.

Of course, myself and many other women met one of the directors to raise our concerns . We had all raised it individually with our managers.

We’re not finished yet.

Some teenagers had come in (community campus so gym is in a school)

Tangentially, I'm a volunteer sports coach. No adults (bar the school chaperones) are allowed in changing rooms when children are there. I've had to leave the adults changing room before when a girls school was visiting the same centre and needed it for overflow. All the non-school adults had to leave. And we did, because we signed up for safeguarding.

There must be many situational differences that policies need to cover.

I'm sure that, somewhere, She For Whom I Am Named is arching an eyebrow at the screenshots and expects to see them elsewhere.