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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/11/2024 08:29

EyeofOrion · 11/11/2024 00:19

Can you outline the specific rights of both women of children that were being threatened by a Democratic win?

Redefining the term woman so that it no longer means “adult human female” but instead means “adult human female and men who feel like women” (however it is that all women feel which is never defined affects all women

how do you have women only refuges, support groups, programmes to get women into politics or STEM, women only sport when the definition of women also includes men?

how do you plan anything accurately or record data when the category woman includes men?

Whetherornotyoutry · 11/11/2024 08:29

I wouldn't vote for an openly racist party but I don't think I could overlook this either. It's not true that it's a minor issue (men in women's sports). Even in my small town ONE Tw insisting in competing and changing with the girls has affected hundreds of girls - not least because they explicitly been taught that their feelings are less important than one man's.

HermioneWeasley · 11/11/2024 08:32

I am gender critical and at first I didn’t think the trans issue/gender ideology played any part in the election, as much as I would like to think it had.

but the poll another posted shared above showed that a general impression of Kamala as too liberal/out of touch on this issue did play a part, and after the Trump campaign started running an ad with a clip of KH pledging her commitment to taxpayer funded surgeries for prisoners with the strap line Kamala is for they/them, Trump is for you, there was a 2.7% swing to Trump. So they played it a lot.

did people vote on this single issue, no. Was it part of a perception of her as out of touch, dangerously liberal etc, yes.

in reality almost nobody wants men competing in women’s sports or thinks men in women’s prisons is a good idea. It is extraordinary that so many clever people have allowed fringe lunatics to dictate policy.

HermioneWeasley · 11/11/2024 08:35

Oh, and Elon Musk’s son being captured by the trans cult played a big part as well. It’s very obvious that the price of Elon’s financial and media support was Trump making child transition an election issue. There is no way Republicans would otherwise care about the medicalised conversion therapy of gay kids and Trump make it a day one commitment.

Cailin66 · 11/11/2024 08:36

Maddy70 · 10/11/2024 23:18

If you only vote on a single policy you will get burnt. You have to get a "best fit"

Not always true. In Ireland I never voted for any party that was anti abortion, because to me they were anti woman. That one policy was fundamental to me. There were many like me and eventually we succeeded. Just like we will succeed with the trans ideology. Particularly where it relates to the mutilation of children, to their sterility and to men being allowed in women's sports or safe spaces.

drwitch · 11/11/2024 08:37

Alias grace, the issue is in the interpretation of critical race theory as one which sees the solution to structural racism as individual atonement.

Cailin66 · 11/11/2024 08:41

EyeofOrion · 11/11/2024 00:19

Can you outline the specific rights of both women of children that were being threatened by a Democratic win?

  • allowing gender surgery on minors
  • giving women in jail no options but to be housed with any man who declared himself to be a woman
  • Title IX
  • supplying women in California jails with condoms
Ingenieur · 11/11/2024 08:42

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/11/2024 08:29

Redefining the term woman so that it no longer means “adult human female” but instead means “adult human female and men who feel like women” (however it is that all women feel which is never defined affects all women

how do you have women only refuges, support groups, programmes to get women into politics or STEM, women only sport when the definition of women also includes men?

how do you plan anything accurately or record data when the category woman includes men?

Indeed. When someone can identify into a category without basis in reality undermines the validity of all groups.

OP posts:
Cailin66 · 11/11/2024 08:47

Bowietips · 10/11/2024 23:30

It might be a single policy, but it has multiple consequences.

And that policy was enough to give Trump enough of a swing margin. Pretending it was a minor issue is a foolish thing, it's clear it got traction and if you're a swing voter particularly so. Trump knew this. Harris in her refusal to deal with this did her campaign no favours, as outlined in the article in the OP.

The good news is that this is being analysed and debated, lessons will be learnt.

I was unaware Title IX was put on hold, Specifically because the Biden administration do know it was such an issue. That makes it even worse, they didn't have the courage of their own convictions and policies. Cowards. And bullies of women's and children's rights.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2024 08:48

Jay Michaelson, the man who couldn't cope with someone saying that people don't like boys playing in girls sports - is married to a man and they have a daughter......presumably by surrogacy? God knows when he will finally realise that sex is real and maybe start prioritisng his daughter's future needs over those of boys. You have to wonder what they are teaching their daughter and how they will deal with the facts of her puberty when she gets there.

EmpressaurusKitty · 11/11/2024 08:51

You also have to wonder how Jay Michaelson & his husband knew who to ask to be their surrogate, if they had one.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2024 08:52

Cailin66 · 11/11/2024 08:41

  • allowing gender surgery on minors
  • giving women in jail no options but to be housed with any man who declared himself to be a woman
  • Title IX
  • supplying women in California jails with condoms

Add to the above ...women's right to privacy and dignity in single sex accommodations and facilities ( Remember the Wi Spa incident as just one example?)

Destroying the integrity ( and safety) of female only sports and permiiting males to win medals and awards that were meant for women and girls.

Ingenieur · 11/11/2024 08:53

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

Quietly dropping the most obviously stupid bits and claiming to have been sensible all along is where it's at.

I can see why this might be a seductive and beneficial bit of realpolitik, but I really believe that this mess is important enough to require something of a reckoning or at least a reflection on the excesses of the movement. I'm sure it would get some of the votes back, but the trust has been completely squandered.

I can't think of a topic in recent memory that experienced the depth of ideological capture, limiting of free speech, reputational destruction of opponents and extremism of belief. All based on a fringe belief of a small number of radical academic psychologists.

I'd rather not experience this again, and both sides of the political aisle must ensure that ideas are discussed freely and in sunlight.

OP posts:
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/11/2024 08:58

In the US it's Hobson's choice - anti abortion on one side, trans ideology on the other. We're fortunate in the UK not to have that party political dividing line. So it's better for UK women not to take our steer from US politics, better for us to influence them than the other way round.

The WPATH files show that Dr Cass couldn't have headed her research in the US or conducted it there with independence and integrity. The direct political interference by the US government (Biden's government) into research by a highly respected US university (Johns Hopkins) is one of the shockers of the gender story which undermines faith in government. It's hard to claim truth and moral superiority and scientific neutrality and integrity for your own side when you're directly responsible for undermining them..

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/11/2024 09:00

did people vote on this single issue, no. Was it part of a perception of her as out of touch, dangerously liberal etc, yes.

This is where I was in the UK elections. Labour had my vote and lost it. Different perspectives on gender with respectful and open dialogue with gender critical people (including those in the Labour part) I could have lived with, not least because I know the more the topic is properly debated and interrogated, the weaker the Genderist position becomes.

(And also because I think the possibilities and perseptives or gender non conforming people ultimately support Feminism and general human happiness, and I don't want to silence or ignore those perspectives and voices. It's the replacement of sex with gender, and the undefinition of sex-based rights, experiences, language and history that I reject).

It was the witchhunt, the refusal to see and understand the other perspect, the casting any disagreement as hate and bigotry, the celebration of cancelling, that lost them my vote.

Because if they will do this with gender, if they can look at the history of women (in the original sex-based meaning) and say "no, that word, and the history and rights that go with it, was a misunderstanding. All this never really belonged to female people at all; being a woman, and all that goes with it, is nothing to do with your bodies, it's just because you think like a woman and it always has been; your voices and expereinces, the facts of history and science, are irrelevant in this matter", what else will they do it about? What other facts, who else's rights, and right to tell their own story and activate for their own needs, would be next? Who else will be, indeed who else has already been, thrown out because their truth doesn't fit the narrative?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/11/2024 09:02

EmpressaurusKitty · 11/11/2024 08:51

You also have to wonder how Jay Michaelson & his husband knew who to ask to be their surrogate, if they had one.

Oh, they know the facts of life, they just don't see what that basic body stuff has to do with why women need women's rights. After all, if boys can look just as pretty as girls, and if girls can be more than just mothers, what's the real difference anyway?

Chrysanthemum5 · 11/11/2024 09:03

drwitch · 11/11/2024 06:50

I think if you try to tell people men can become women and that they are personally to blame for Jim Crow laws and slavery they are not going to believe you when you try to explain that inflation will be even higher under Trump's economic plan

Exactly! If you will lie about basic biology people will think you lie about everything

QuietlyStorming · 11/11/2024 09:04

334bu · 11/11/2024 08:00

Interesting analysis of what influenced especially swing/ undecided voters. Also Democrats must take a careful look at why there was such a drop in turnout from 2020 election.

Do you have a link to this, please? Looks very interesting but I can’t read it properly here or see the source. Very interested to see the detail. Thank you

RainWithSunnySpells · 11/11/2024 09:16

Amaryllis said 'In the US it's Hobson's choice - anti abortion on one side, trans ideology on the other.'

From what I have read and listened to, people have moved their focus to getting abortion protections in place at State level (if they aren't already there).

This, of course, reduces the need to fight that issue at Federal level. So the choice is not quite so balanced as the Trump option was: the economy, reducing immigration and social justice going too far (such as men in womens prisons/sport/other) and accepting to fight for abortion rights at State level (if you need to).

Soontobe60 · 11/11/2024 09:18

Maddy70 · 10/11/2024 23:18

If you only vote on a single policy you will get burnt. You have to get a "best fit"

Eradicating the female sex isn't a ‘single policy’. It affects over half the total population, regardless of age, economic status, religion, religious belief, health status etc etc.

sweetsardineface · 11/11/2024 09:23

Labour have now had two big warnings on this: Scotland and the US. They need to adopt common sense policy rather than insisting that people are wrong about what they see with their own eyes.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/11/2024 09:23

EyeofOrion · 11/11/2024 00:31

You are correct. The public really only say soundbites like ‘No men in women’s sport’ (although the occurrence of such is minuscule) because they’ve read them endlessly in media, and then repeat them mindlessly.

Then they vote for someone like Trump on the basis of that tiny issue, and then find their healthcare - a much bigger issue - is wiped out.

Here's an idea.

Why can't the Democrats see the bigger picture and realise that by alienating voters over "minor" issues such as men in women's sports and minors having mastectomies, they're at risk of losing the election and having to sit back and watch whilst their supporters lose access to lifesaving healthcare?

RainWithSunnySpells · 11/11/2024 09:24

AliasGrace47 · 11/11/2024 07:54

Def agree on first part- but what do you mean they were blamed for slavery & Jim Crow?

I think this is referring to the fact that 'Social Justice' or 'Progressive' issues come as a job lot. You have to believe all of them to be OTRSOH. So by not believing that TWAW you are also a racist bigot as well as a transphobe, and there were plenty of people who were willing to tell you so.

There was a quote referencing this on Wings recently. https://wingsoverscotland.com/how-it-happened/

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/11/2024 09:26

I posted in this topic about six months ago about being thrown out of a US based parenting group for basically saying I don't agree that JK Rowling is a Nazi.

A couple of days ago I received a message from one of the women in the group saying she agrees with me and has recently left the group in similar circumstances. (Nothing directly related to gender but she also disagreed with the group on a political issue and there was a pile on.)

The timing does seem significant. I suspect that after this election defeat, cracks are starting to open up all over the place.

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