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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 17:29

The Democrats who are doubling down on this hold in mind 'they/thems' who are gentle, peaceful gender non conforming citizens who need protecting from harm..

The majority of the public see the people the Dems have in mind as a subgroup of the "they/thems' and think many other subgroups require controls and interventions to be placed on them to prevent others from harm. They rightfully object to Kamala making all these people her priority

With the addition that there are obviously less well meaning people on both sides, I agree.

fromorbit · 16/11/2024 20:28

Great article summarises the huge drama ahead for Democrats and the forces arranged against change.

A Democratic Reckoning on “Gender Identity”?
https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-democratic-reckoning-on-gender-identity?

Change is inevitable. Genderism needs ALL the things to continue pronouns, sports, prisons, experiments on kids etc. The wheels are coming off, because a whole bunch of these things are extremely and obviously dumb. However the resulting conflict could tear the Democrats apart because the party went ALL in on it.

A Democratic Reckoning on “Gender Identity”?

The party’s handling of the issue played a key role in its defeat on November 5. Now, some voices are starting to speak out about it.

https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-democratic-reckoning-on-gender-identity

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 21:22

Quotation from the above:
Sam Harris, a popular author and self-described liberal who detests Trump, offered an even more biting assessment of Democrats’ failure on the transgender front. In a 40-minute episode titled “The Reckoning,” recorded on November 11 for his podcast Waking Up, Harris equated gender ideology to a “new religion” and its followers to a “cult”.

Daring to say the unsayable out loud.

It goes on and makes the observation:
It is precisely why Democrats will struggle to walk back their support for radical transgender policies. Democrats spent years lecturing the public that boys’ participation in girls’ sports and mastectomies for teen girls who identify as boys are non-negotiable “civil rights.” If they change course now, they will either have to admit they were wrong before or become rights-violators by their own definition.

As for what has fuelled polarisation. Again we see the point about it happening way before the advent of social media:
The Democratic Party’s bind is partly due to structural changes within the American political system that have occurred over the past 60 years. Party and campaign-finance reforms of the 1960s and 1970s weakened parties as institutions, leaving elected representatives ever more dependent on the open primary process, which tends to favor more ideologically extreme voters. Additionally, the erosion of the parties’ strength left a vacuum that the media stepped in to fill, replacing the parties as the entity responsible for organizing and disseminating election-relevant information about candidates. Parties remain accountable to the people through elections, but to whom, exactly, does MSNBC answer to?

Another challenge Democrats face is the rise of interest-group liberalism—specifically, the “public interest” nonprofits that now make up the backbone of the Democratic coalition. These groups have no incentive to moderate their stances on controversial issues; they report to foundation and deep-pocket donors, and they increasingly recruit staff based on ideological commitments. There is a reason, after all, why Chase Strangio—who uses “they/them” pronouns, has called for the banning of Abigail Shrier’s book Irreversible Damage, and told MSNBC’s Chris Hayes, “I am a civil rights and constitutional lawyer who fundamentally doesn’t believe in the Constitution and the legal system”—is one of the most influential ACLU attorneys.

Again the role of lobbyists and donors is a crucial one that can't be forgotten.

And I find the following REALLY interesting:
Pamela Paul made an important observation in her Times piece. The “contact hypothesis,” which predicts that the public becomes more sympathetic to a group and its expressed needs as contact with members of that group become more routine, has not held in the case of people who identify as transgender. Quite the opposite, in fact: as the American public became more familiar with such people, it became less accepting of the transgender movement’s belief system and policy preferences.

How often have we seen the fallacy thrown at us that no one here 'has ever met someone trans'. When actually some of the most vocal and passionate on the subject here have closed family members who identify as trans and they have the biggest concerns and reservations.

The whole idea of 'sunlight' is also another which is very much against the principle of contact hypothesis.

If contact hypothesis is going wrong, that asked some big questions - that suggests that there is a negative response to behaviours which are felt to be anti-social in some manner.

This is the one that I find particularly interesting. And it's hard to counter even if you try and play devil's advocate when you consider pretty much every famous transwoman 'doesn't have the best PR team'. I mean you have Eddie Izzard who previously during Brexit before switching pronouns, whipped up such a frenzy that there were newspapers editorials saying Izzard made Remainers vote leave. You have Jordan Grey of C4 fame. Your sports representative Kellie Maloney self confessed wife strangler. And you have the lovely India Willoughby.

And the US has Dylan. The face of Bud Light. Cracking Advert that.

It's hard to think of a prominent name that doesn't walk hand in hand with controversy often self promoted but also less so and which would be career death for pretty much anyone else on account of their behaviour.

Again something that is said in whispers and not allowed to be spoken about, as 'anti-trans', rather than people being concerned about a behavioural pattern that has caused actual identified issues.

SquirrelSoShiny · 16/11/2024 21:29

fromorbit · 16/11/2024 20:28

Great article summarises the huge drama ahead for Democrats and the forces arranged against change.

A Democratic Reckoning on “Gender Identity”?
https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-democratic-reckoning-on-gender-identity?

Change is inevitable. Genderism needs ALL the things to continue pronouns, sports, prisons, experiments on kids etc. The wheels are coming off, because a whole bunch of these things are extremely and obviously dumb. However the resulting conflict could tear the Democrats apart because the party went ALL in on it.

Excellent piece thanks for sharing.

Ingenieur · 16/11/2024 21:49

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 21:22

Quotation from the above:
Sam Harris, a popular author and self-described liberal who detests Trump, offered an even more biting assessment of Democrats’ failure on the transgender front. In a 40-minute episode titled “The Reckoning,” recorded on November 11 for his podcast Waking Up, Harris equated gender ideology to a “new religion” and its followers to a “cult”.

Daring to say the unsayable out loud.

It goes on and makes the observation:
It is precisely why Democrats will struggle to walk back their support for radical transgender policies. Democrats spent years lecturing the public that boys’ participation in girls’ sports and mastectomies for teen girls who identify as boys are non-negotiable “civil rights.” If they change course now, they will either have to admit they were wrong before or become rights-violators by their own definition.

As for what has fuelled polarisation. Again we see the point about it happening way before the advent of social media:
The Democratic Party’s bind is partly due to structural changes within the American political system that have occurred over the past 60 years. Party and campaign-finance reforms of the 1960s and 1970s weakened parties as institutions, leaving elected representatives ever more dependent on the open primary process, which tends to favor more ideologically extreme voters. Additionally, the erosion of the parties’ strength left a vacuum that the media stepped in to fill, replacing the parties as the entity responsible for organizing and disseminating election-relevant information about candidates. Parties remain accountable to the people through elections, but to whom, exactly, does MSNBC answer to?

Another challenge Democrats face is the rise of interest-group liberalism—specifically, the “public interest” nonprofits that now make up the backbone of the Democratic coalition. These groups have no incentive to moderate their stances on controversial issues; they report to foundation and deep-pocket donors, and they increasingly recruit staff based on ideological commitments. There is a reason, after all, why Chase Strangio—who uses “they/them” pronouns, has called for the banning of Abigail Shrier’s book Irreversible Damage, and told MSNBC’s Chris Hayes, “I am a civil rights and constitutional lawyer who fundamentally doesn’t believe in the Constitution and the legal system”—is one of the most influential ACLU attorneys.

Again the role of lobbyists and donors is a crucial one that can't be forgotten.

And I find the following REALLY interesting:
Pamela Paul made an important observation in her Times piece. The “contact hypothesis,” which predicts that the public becomes more sympathetic to a group and its expressed needs as contact with members of that group become more routine, has not held in the case of people who identify as transgender. Quite the opposite, in fact: as the American public became more familiar with such people, it became less accepting of the transgender movement’s belief system and policy preferences.

How often have we seen the fallacy thrown at us that no one here 'has ever met someone trans'. When actually some of the most vocal and passionate on the subject here have closed family members who identify as trans and they have the biggest concerns and reservations.

The whole idea of 'sunlight' is also another which is very much against the principle of contact hypothesis.

If contact hypothesis is going wrong, that asked some big questions - that suggests that there is a negative response to behaviours which are felt to be anti-social in some manner.

This is the one that I find particularly interesting. And it's hard to counter even if you try and play devil's advocate when you consider pretty much every famous transwoman 'doesn't have the best PR team'. I mean you have Eddie Izzard who previously during Brexit before switching pronouns, whipped up such a frenzy that there were newspapers editorials saying Izzard made Remainers vote leave. You have Jordan Grey of C4 fame. Your sports representative Kellie Maloney self confessed wife strangler. And you have the lovely India Willoughby.

And the US has Dylan. The face of Bud Light. Cracking Advert that.

It's hard to think of a prominent name that doesn't walk hand in hand with controversy often self promoted but also less so and which would be career death for pretty much anyone else on account of their behaviour.

Again something that is said in whispers and not allowed to be spoken about, as 'anti-trans', rather than people being concerned about a behavioural pattern that has caused actual identified issues.

Edited

I'm so pleased that Sam Harris has come out so strongly on this. I've been so disappointed by many in the "New Atheist" movement who have ignored their own rational principles to swallow it whole.

And he even used the 'C' word!

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 16/11/2024 21:53

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 21:22

Quotation from the above:
Sam Harris, a popular author and self-described liberal who detests Trump, offered an even more biting assessment of Democrats’ failure on the transgender front. In a 40-minute episode titled “The Reckoning,” recorded on November 11 for his podcast Waking Up, Harris equated gender ideology to a “new religion” and its followers to a “cult”.

Daring to say the unsayable out loud.

It goes on and makes the observation:
It is precisely why Democrats will struggle to walk back their support for radical transgender policies. Democrats spent years lecturing the public that boys’ participation in girls’ sports and mastectomies for teen girls who identify as boys are non-negotiable “civil rights.” If they change course now, they will either have to admit they were wrong before or become rights-violators by their own definition.

As for what has fuelled polarisation. Again we see the point about it happening way before the advent of social media:
The Democratic Party’s bind is partly due to structural changes within the American political system that have occurred over the past 60 years. Party and campaign-finance reforms of the 1960s and 1970s weakened parties as institutions, leaving elected representatives ever more dependent on the open primary process, which tends to favor more ideologically extreme voters. Additionally, the erosion of the parties’ strength left a vacuum that the media stepped in to fill, replacing the parties as the entity responsible for organizing and disseminating election-relevant information about candidates. Parties remain accountable to the people through elections, but to whom, exactly, does MSNBC answer to?

Another challenge Democrats face is the rise of interest-group liberalism—specifically, the “public interest” nonprofits that now make up the backbone of the Democratic coalition. These groups have no incentive to moderate their stances on controversial issues; they report to foundation and deep-pocket donors, and they increasingly recruit staff based on ideological commitments. There is a reason, after all, why Chase Strangio—who uses “they/them” pronouns, has called for the banning of Abigail Shrier’s book Irreversible Damage, and told MSNBC’s Chris Hayes, “I am a civil rights and constitutional lawyer who fundamentally doesn’t believe in the Constitution and the legal system”—is one of the most influential ACLU attorneys.

Again the role of lobbyists and donors is a crucial one that can't be forgotten.

And I find the following REALLY interesting:
Pamela Paul made an important observation in her Times piece. The “contact hypothesis,” which predicts that the public becomes more sympathetic to a group and its expressed needs as contact with members of that group become more routine, has not held in the case of people who identify as transgender. Quite the opposite, in fact: as the American public became more familiar with such people, it became less accepting of the transgender movement’s belief system and policy preferences.

How often have we seen the fallacy thrown at us that no one here 'has ever met someone trans'. When actually some of the most vocal and passionate on the subject here have closed family members who identify as trans and they have the biggest concerns and reservations.

The whole idea of 'sunlight' is also another which is very much against the principle of contact hypothesis.

If contact hypothesis is going wrong, that asked some big questions - that suggests that there is a negative response to behaviours which are felt to be anti-social in some manner.

This is the one that I find particularly interesting. And it's hard to counter even if you try and play devil's advocate when you consider pretty much every famous transwoman 'doesn't have the best PR team'. I mean you have Eddie Izzard who previously during Brexit before switching pronouns, whipped up such a frenzy that there were newspapers editorials saying Izzard made Remainers vote leave. You have Jordan Grey of C4 fame. Your sports representative Kellie Maloney self confessed wife strangler. And you have the lovely India Willoughby.

And the US has Dylan. The face of Bud Light. Cracking Advert that.

It's hard to think of a prominent name that doesn't walk hand in hand with controversy often self promoted but also less so and which would be career death for pretty much anyone else on account of their behaviour.

Again something that is said in whispers and not allowed to be spoken about, as 'anti-trans', rather than people being concerned about a behavioural pattern that has caused actual identified issues.

Edited

If they change course now, they will either have to admit they were wrong before or become rights-violators by their own definition.

Yeah, I don’t know whether they can pivot from their position. I wonder if they will either declare that the science is coming through that shows the previous positions need to be ‘reviewed’? Or will they just wait it out and let the changes all get made (because they don’t have the numbers to vote bills down) and then when they next get into power just not push to make changes back?

I mean, if the IOC makes the changes in sport, will this give sporting federations the impetus to make the changes too? It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

And now that you mention the poor PR of some males with gender identity, it seems like very few women will be thinking Brianna Wu is moderate after some recent posts. It is really interesting just how many of this group with media presence show how misogynistic this group seems to have a strong tendency to be.

nolongersurprised · 16/11/2024 22:04

Yeah, I don’t know whether they can pivot from their position. I wonder if they will either declare that the science is coming through that shows the previous positions need to be ‘reviewed’? Or will they just wait it out and let the changes all get made (because they don’t have the numbers to vote bills down) and then when they next get into power just not push to make changes back?

The Democrats, in their embrace of gender ideology, have supported the modification of children’s bodies. They can’t pivot. Their best bet is to not change things back, when they’re back in power.

The contact time point is fascinating. Looks like a male sexual rights movement (AGP) that has ensnared autistic, mentally unwell and/or same sex attracted children isn’t winning hearts and minds.

BonfireLady · 16/11/2024 22:53

BonfireLady · 16/11/2024 11:21

You've given me the motivation I needed to re-read this thread from the top down, see the comments I know I'll have missed (because of the pace it's been moving at) and think about how it's all unfolding in a nit-picking vs "I wish I'd worded that better" way.

I've got about 30 mins before I need to go anywhere. I'm going to buy another coffee from the lovely little cafe that I'm in and make a start...

What a great thread. I've now had chance to read it all. As well as catching up on some bits I'd missed, I've now had chance to think about how it's all unfolding in a nit-picking vs "I wish I'd worded that better" way.

@EyeofOrion has made some valid points about mass manipulation at nation state levels. This is way bigger than gender identity belief and does destabilise society. @FlirtsWithRhinos has expanded upon these points more fully.

In Eye's posts, I see a similarity in the way I have struggled to articulate myself on threads at times, meaning that it's easy to be misunderstood.

I think I've improved on this more recently.
I've made a conscious decision to change which threads I engage on because I realised that the risk of being misunderstood is higher on some. Given my top priority for being here is the impact on autistic children and young people (female and male), I'm blatantly never going to win any Feminist of the Year award but that's fine by me. As a woman, I do care about women's rights and I've learned loads on this just from being here.

I have no idea why Eye is on this board - to learn, listen, tell people things - all of the above? But I see good faith engagement.

I also see a similarity in Eye's posts to many of my male friends and family (I used to see the same in the women that I know but this is changing significantly) where they completely agree that biological males shouldn't be allowed to identify in to women's sports and that children shouldn't be pulled in to this medical scandal.... but they see gender identity as a niche, echo chamber issue. That it's pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of important issues. I love my friends and family members dearly but unfortunately I've realised I just need to be patient. That they'll recognise how big this really is for society in their own time and that that's OK (apologies that this sounds patronising.. I've tried to rewrite it a couple of times and failed). It took me ages to unpick it all and I continue to learn more all the time - I knew it was massive from the moment I realised it was a medical scandal but I still didn't understand quite how pervasive it is across society (the full extent of the authoritarianism that underpins it) for quite some time.

The image below from Eye's responses (the bold) to 4 questions summarises for me that Eye is engaging in good faith, is clear on the importance and relevance of sex but still sees this as a small issue in society. There are so many people who see this just like that.

Hopefully there will be increasing numbers of Democrats, Labour and Lib Dems politicians who open their ears and realise just how big an issue this is.

As PPs have said, it's not a single issue: it's fundamental. Governments are gaslighting populations in to accepting gender identity belief as fact in education, healthcare, sports, prisons and more. Voters are saying no. Which takes us right back to the title and theme of this thread.

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity
UtopiaPlanitia · 16/11/2024 22:55

The latest Bill Maher critique of the Democratic Party's election campaign and behaviour is in and it's bloody good (and humorous):

lcakethereforeIam · 16/11/2024 23:15

Thanks for the Bill Maher link. He's got Neil deGrasse Tyson on next week 🍿

BonfireLady · 16/11/2024 23:54

While reading the thread, I came across this:

The bit in KCSIE on emotional abuse details clearly why getting all the children to pretend someone can change sex is emotional abuse if enforced or encouraged by teachers.
How this has been allowed to happen when KCSIE is really quite clear on this already astounds me every day.

Can I ask where this is in the KCSIE document please @themostspecialelfintheworkshop ? It sounds very useful.

UtopiaPlanitia · 17/11/2024 00:16

lcakethereforeIam · 16/11/2024 23:15

Thanks for the Bill Maher link. He's got Neil deGrasse Tyson on next week 🍿

Oooooooh.... 🍿 indeed!! That should be an interesting discussion cos Tyson is bats on this issue and Bill is very much of the opinion that TRAS are science deniers.

Datun · 17/11/2024 06:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/11/2024 09:26

As I’ve noted previously, liberals who see a problem with the Democrats’ position on transgenderism tend to resort to the golden mean fallacy: If one party says X and the other says Y, the truth must be somewhere in the middle. But the truth, in every case, is found where the evidence and reasoning lead, not at the average of two extremes. If Donald Trump says that child sex “change” procedures lack evidence, that it is unfair for boys to compete in girls’ sports, or suggests that sex is determined at conception, these sentiments don’t become less true simply because they are said by the Democrats’ bogeyman.

From the article posted by @fromorbit

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/11/2024 09:28

The Democrats, in their embrace of gender ideology, have supported the modification of children’s bodies. They can’t pivot. Their best bet is to not change things back, when they’re back in power.

The contact time point is fascinating. Looks like a male sexual rights movement (AGP) that has ensnared autistic, mentally unwell and/or same sex attracted children isn’t winning hearts and minds.

Who would have thought!

BonfireLady · 17/11/2024 10:04

@Ereshkigalangcleg thank you for posting the quotes above. That prompted me to read the article.

Yes, it's excellent. Thank you for sharing @fromorbit Such important points being surfaced up together, summarising much of what has been said on this thread on the key reason why the election went the way it did.

In short, all Trump needed to do to win was to help swing voters and enough traditional Democrat voters lose trust in Harris. The swing voters went his way, the Democrats stayed at home. It's a phenomenal achievement, given he's a convicted felon, (allegedly) started an insurrection at the White House 3 years ago and lots of them don't even like him.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/11/2024 14:26

What kind of thing did you say to get deleted @Datun? I missed your post.

CautiousLurker1 · 17/11/2024 15:38

BonfireLady · 17/11/2024 10:04

@Ereshkigalangcleg thank you for posting the quotes above. That prompted me to read the article.

Yes, it's excellent. Thank you for sharing @fromorbit Such important points being surfaced up together, summarising much of what has been said on this thread on the key reason why the election went the way it did.

In short, all Trump needed to do to win was to help swing voters and enough traditional Democrat voters lose trust in Harris. The swing voters went his way, the Democrats stayed at home. It's a phenomenal achievement, given he's a convicted felon, (allegedly) started an insurrection at the White House 3 years ago and lots of them don't even like him.

Yes, I’ve posted on other US themed threads about this - Trump LOST the last election with 74m votes and won this one with 2m fewer votes demonstrating that he has less support now, even with the added swing voters on the trans issue; add to this the 14m who did not come out to vote for Kamala and it is an absolute shit-show of an election for the Democrats. The inference is not that Trump had more support, but that he/the Republicans was actually the least objectionable party - which, given his appalling history, reflects just how unhappy many voters were with the Democrats performance over the last 4 years and what they were promising for the next 4. As I’ve commented elsewhere, I am livid with the Dems. They had a really good shot and they’ve pissed it up a rainbow mural covered wall.

lcakethereforeIam · 17/11/2024 15:56

I agree this election was lost by the Democrats rather than won by the Republicans. So far, from this side of the pond, I've seen little sign that they've realised it yet, let alone learned from it. Bill Maher said this at the end of the piece linked in the YouTube just upthread (I've copied it from the transcript).
Democrat voters should stop crying in their cars and direct their anger at their own party.

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity
lcakethereforeIam · 17/11/2024 16:27

Just read this article in the Times

https://archive.ph/lWBCp

https://www.thetimes.com/business-money/economics/article/what-gave-donald-trump-a-landslide-it-wasnt-the-economy-stupid-8k7gqz078

This bit stuck out

To get a clue on what drove the result, consider this little exercise:

Pollster: Sir, would you mind telling me why you voted for Donald Trump?

Respondent: (Thinking) If I say my daughter just lost a high school swim meet to a genetic man, and my ten-year-old son found a tampon in his lower school bathroom, I will be called a sexist. If I say my town’s budget is in disarray because of the cost of housing illegal aliens, I will be called xenophobic. If I say my school board has changed the name of my old high school and taken down a statue of George Washington, I will be called a racist. If I say I am sick and tired of being blamed for burning the planet, I will be called an ecoterrorist … (Audibly) It is because of inflation and the economy.

The technical term for the tendency of respondents to answer in a way that will be viewed favourably by others is social-desirability bias.

Have there been any surveys of the 8 million(!) Democrat voters who didn't bother to vote?

What gave Donald Trump a landslide? It wasn’t the economy, stupid

The focus on the price of eggs risks ignoring the crucial role of the culture wars in the Democrats’ defeat

https://www.thetimes.com/business-money/economics/article/what-gave-donald-trump-a-landslide-it-wasnt-the-economy-stupid-8k7gqz078

Datun · 17/11/2024 18:10

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/11/2024 14:26

What kind of thing did you say to get deleted @Datun? I missed your post.

Malaga airport opinion

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/11/2024 18:58

How surprising.

SquirrelSoShiny · 17/11/2024 20:08

Datun · 17/11/2024 18:10

Malaga airport opinion

Absolutely pathetic reason for deletion. Why is this still being deleted when the actual Trans community have spoken openly about this? Debbie Hayton has been very honest about this as just one example and I really respect Debbie's willingness to discuss this.

andIsaid · 17/11/2024 20:11

What is the malaga airport thing?

I have googled it and cannot get any light.

It has come up all over the threads in the past while.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/11/2024 20:16

andIsaid · 17/11/2024 20:11

What is the malaga airport thing?

I have googled it and cannot get any light.

It has come up all over the threads in the past while.

The IATA airport code for Malaga airport is a three letter acronym with another meaning, short for autogynephile.

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