Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
nolongersurprised · 11/11/2024 11:08

NotBadConsidering · 11/11/2024 11:06

Boo hoo, the poor Democrats, can’t be mean to them, after they spent over 1 billion dollars on nothing worthwhile and didn’t understand their electorate. Give them a break everyone, won’t you? They deserve kindness, not blame for the consequences of one of the worst campaigns in US election history🙄

Can we please not have another thread fill up with “bot” nonsense. Evidence was asked for on the previous thread, none was forthcoming, it was clear there was a bot-like agenda to dismiss the impacts of gender ideology and concerns of normal people.

Yes. I was told I had doubtless seen bot-produced memes and videos and then none were produced as evidence.

Just an article posted telling me that that’s what I had been exposed to.

Codlingmoths · 11/11/2024 11:11

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/11/2024 11:07

Of course we are being manipulated. On both sides. There are just as many thought-preventing soundbites on the supposedly Liberal side as there are on the supposedly Right side - calling anyone who questions genderism a Nazi and a bigot who should not be heard or engaged with being an obvious one.

Nevertheless, female people do exist, have suffered and continue to suffer personally from their relative lack of phsyical strength and sexual agression vs men and politically and socially from the structural and cultural baises that disempower them relative to men. And for this reason, they continue to need political, social and legal recognition and support. This is not a soundbite, and this is what the Democrats refused to engage with.

That clip shows pure manipulation- ‘girls are concerned-‘ ‘TRANSPHOBE TRANSPHOBE TRANSPHOBE’ there are none so blind as those who do not see.

TheCoolOliveBalonz · 11/11/2024 11:11

Surely the Labour Party will now quietly drop all the gender nonsense. After Scotland and now the US, they must see what they have to lose. No one really believes in genderism. Even people who say they do, don't. The critical race theory is the other lesson to learn. No one likes being reduced to the colour of their skin so stop doing it! I reckon identity politics is over and done with now in the UK.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/11/2024 11:13

FlirtsWithRhinos · 11/11/2024 11:07

Of course we are being manipulated. On both sides. There are just as many thought-preventing soundbites on the supposedly Liberal side as there are on the supposedly Right side - calling anyone who questions genderism a Nazi and a bigot who should not be heard or engaged with being an obvious one.

Nevertheless, female people do exist, have suffered and continue to suffer personally from their relative lack of phsyical strength and sexual agression vs men and politically and socially from the structural and cultural baises that disempower them relative to men. And for this reason, they continue to need political, social and legal recognition and support. This is not a soundbite, and this is what the Democrats refused to engage with.

Even if a bot is saying, "biological males shouldn't be competing in women's sports", that doesn't make it any less true that biological males shouldn't be competing in women's sports.

And once again, the blame here lies with the political left. Because if they hadn't taken the position that biological males should be allowed to compete in women's sports if they want to, saying that they shouldn't be allowed to would not have become a political soundbite.

"The sky is not green" is not a political soundbite, and it could only become a political soundbite if a political party decided to start pretending the sky IS green.

lifeturnsonadime · 11/11/2024 11:13

nolongersurprised · 11/11/2024 11:07

According to some, this “minuscule” issue, is only an issue because of bots and sound bites.

How much louder and longer do women (and some men) need to scream NO to men in women’s sports and women’s spaces before some people appreciate that yes, this issue is real and important

I've just started to listen to the recent TRIP (The Rest Is Politics) pod cast. It's infuriating.

Two men discussing this calling women's rights a culture war and Rory Stewart bemoaning the fact that he is getting 'hate' on X because he 'seemingly' still can't understand how anyone could have voted Trump and calling that an attack on his freedom of speech (he ought to bloody well have tried to be a woman trying to explain that this ideology has been an attack on women's rights).

It's so biased in favour of Democrats = good/ progressive with no woman on their to balance out from a woman's perspective.

I've had to switch it off after shouting at it.

We are all being manipulated ALL of the time. Cutting through the bias can be hard. But once you see that the Democrats have engaged in a 4 year attack on women's rights you can't unsee it. That doesn't mean I wanted Trump, I didn't. It means that the Democrats let women and children down massively.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/11/2024 11:14

TheCoolOliveBalonz · 11/11/2024 11:11

Surely the Labour Party will now quietly drop all the gender nonsense. After Scotland and now the US, they must see what they have to lose. No one really believes in genderism. Even people who say they do, don't. The critical race theory is the other lesson to learn. No one likes being reduced to the colour of their skin so stop doing it! I reckon identity politics is over and done with now in the UK.

I hope you're right, and it doesn't go the other way. ("Trump is opposing all the gender identity stuff so we need to do the opposite to show that we're not like Trump.")

lifeturnsonadime · 11/11/2024 11:14

CaveMum · 11/11/2024 11:08

During the TRIP Live Broadcast on Tuesday night, Mooch kept telling them that it was a major factor whether they liked it or not.

AC is firmly captured, mainly due to his TRA daughter and close friendship with the Kinnock’s (who have a trans/non-binary young adult child).

Rory is a tad more sympathetic - said he’d listened to The Witch Trials of JKR and has friends who are GC - but still doesn’t quite grasp it.

Sorry we've had a bit of a cross post here. Was his reference to the Witch Trials later in the most recent one? If so perhaps I'll give it another go. It just annoyed me so much I had to switch it off!

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/11/2024 11:15

Number three from the top on the list that @334bu shared (the list looks fairly reliable as it's from an organisation aiming for a Democrat win):

“Kamala Harris is focused more on cultural issues like transgender issues rather than helping the middle class” (+17). "

This poll frames the problem as prioritising cultural issues rather than actively being put off by them. "Transgender issues" are only an example, I would be interested to see a deeper dive into which (if any) "cultural issues" were seen by US swing voters as a problem.

Codlingmoths · 11/11/2024 11:27

EyeofOrion · 11/11/2024 09:38

That’s a bizarre, victim-blaming statement. And that’s not what my post meant at all, BTW.

Hahaa what is victim blaming about that? Who are the victims??? I know who I think they are, but I also understand what Orwellian means (something very different to what you seem to think it means) so perhaps victim is another deeply misunderstood concept.

CoteDAzur · 11/11/2024 11:29

EyeofOrion - re "Do you understand what I mean, though, by soundbites? No-one even knew this phrase four years or so ago, then use of it jumped exponentially"

Are you sure about that?

"Sound bites" were talked about back in 2008 about George W Bush's 2004 election campaign, and they were talked about regularly since then, too. Here are references to sound bites in Hillary Clinton's election bid 10 years ago. Did you know that there was a BBC program called BBC Sound Bites 20 years ago? The phrase "sound bites" has been in common use and understood by the general public for at least long.

334bu · 11/11/2024 11:29

That isn’t what I meant by ‘soundbite’. I meant a phrase that has leapt into the lexicon, quite suddenly, and is then repeated so frequently over many forms of media that it has incredible reach. The reach isn’t necessarily due to the topic itself, but the mediums used in transmission - and agenda behind that transmission, of course.

You mean like ...
"Transwomen are women!"
"Trans girls belong in female sports.!"

Looks like most Americans weren't convinced and voted accordingly.
The Democratic party must get its act together, be open to debate and listen to the electorate, if it is to have any chance of regaining power.

CaveMum · 11/11/2024 11:29

lifeturnsonadime · 11/11/2024 11:14

Sorry we've had a bit of a cross post here. Was his reference to the Witch Trials later in the most recent one? If so perhaps I'll give it another go. It just annoyed me so much I had to switch it off!

I think he first mentioned listening to it a good few months back. They did have a very minor discussion about the topic on TRIP when JKR said she couldn’t support the Labour Party based on their stance on this issue, so it was probably around then.

nolongersurprised · 11/11/2024 11:32

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/11/2024 11:15

Number three from the top on the list that @334bu shared (the list looks fairly reliable as it's from an organisation aiming for a Democrat win):

“Kamala Harris is focused more on cultural issues like transgender issues rather than helping the middle class” (+17). "

This poll frames the problem as prioritising cultural issues rather than actively being put off by them. "Transgender issues" are only an example, I would be interested to see a deeper dive into which (if any) "cultural issues" were seen by US swing voters as a problem.

I was reading an NYT article on the Blame Game for Democrats and, at the time, there were about 5000 comments.

this comment, by “Frank” was in the Reader’s Picks, with over 1300 recommends

I'm guessing the route back to power doesn't go through identity politics, anti-racism, lots of airtime for transgender issues, accusations of sexism, or long diatribes on the importance of equity and diversity
10 Replies 1369 Recommended

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 11/11/2024 11:41

WarriorN · 11/11/2024 10:16

Riley Gains also posted this a few days ago.

Two house democrats u turning.

Well, I hope no one forgets what they did ( one cosponsored the bill, he didn’t just nod along). Don’t trust them not to change back if you give them the chance.

Datun · 11/11/2024 11:50

EyeofOrion

Your posts don't make any logical sense.

If you're going to claim that the issues are minuscule and are being amplified by bots, you need to provide examples.

This is a parenting website. Women here are concerned about their children's education and welfare. They see the information being taught to their children. They have compaigned against it, relentlessly.

This is a relatively small country compared to the US, and the women here can write to all the MPs, all the educational authorities, and all the prisons. It's not that big a task, and it's been done. Several times. We know what they say. We know what their policies are.

There's barely a woman here who either doesn't have a trans child, or sees their classmates identifying as trans. It's commonplace. Indeed, many of the women who set up support groups for women involved in this issue, started here.

Transwidows, Children of Transitioners, Sex Matters, Fair Play for Women, Posie Parker Standing for Women, Safe Schools Alliance, Keep Prison Single Sex, Man Friday.

All mumsnetters.

This is not theoretical. We're not guessing.

We're living it.

And the reason we know it's not unimportant? Because women are relentlessly targeted in order to shut them up.

I can give you chapter and verse on women who have been arrested for fuck all. Using the word castration, posting ribbons, attending rallies, saying my nan is a lesbian, putting up a poster in their house window. All verifiable, all provable.

Twitter was throwing women off for calling men, men. Megan Murphy was thrown off Twitter for saying yes that's him. Until musk stopped it.

Women have been banned from this very site.

Why do you think we say male born individual, instead of man? Why can't we use term trans identified male? Why do we use a code for AGP? Why do people get banned for calling it a cult?

if it's minuscule, why is the censorship so severe?

And if it's miniscule, why doesn't it just get rejected out of hand? By the Democrats, the Labour Party?

What are they so scared of? And if they're scared of the backlash over something minuscule, what the fuck does that tell you?

I know why they're scared.

When a meeting about this was held at the House of Commons, the woman at the houses of Parliament who answers the phone said she'd never known anything like it, the backlash, the threats, the objections.

When a meeting was scheduled to be held at a publicly hired room at Millwall football club, Millwall football club cancelled it due to the threats. To understand the context, they pride themselves on their slogan 'everybody hates us and we don't care.'

A woman was punched at speakers corner. She had to refer to her male attacker, who was convicted of battery, as she.

Men protest outside every single woman's meeting chanting burn it down, pouring piss on themselves, jostling and intimidating women aa they leave, threatening the venue, pouring soup on the heads of women, releasing insects so the building must be evacuated.

Many women here personally know many of those women.

So give over with the bloody nonsense that this is all bot generated and not real. As a tactic, it's really silly. As a protest, it's useless.

tobee · 11/11/2024 12:01

Diomi · 11/11/2024 05:48

I don’t think Trump got in because people think he is a good thing for women’s rights. I think it was because of the economy. Being able to afford the grocery bill tends to trump most other considerations. Getting re-elected during high inflation is not easy because everyone is feeling worse off.

Agreed. But the dems position on gender stuff gave the electorate another excuse to vote Republican.

sweetsardineface · 11/11/2024 12:02

@Datun 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Datun · 11/11/2024 12:11

Oh, and by the way, Justine Roberts, who owns this site, has said, publicly, that she would like to be able to host the conversation on here but she's worried because the advertisers who advertise with mumsnet have been threatened by transactivists and, without them, the site folds.

This is the biggest gathering of parents in history, and men are trying to shut it down because of THIS conversation.

Miniscule, my arse.

QuietlyStorming · 11/11/2024 12:21

@Datun 🙌🏽 so good I had to save your post so I can refer back to it, because absolutely yes, all of this.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 11/11/2024 12:24

QuietlyStorming · 11/11/2024 12:21

@Datun 🙌🏽 so good I had to save your post so I can refer back to it, because absolutely yes, all of this.

Same!

CoteDAzur · 11/11/2024 12:24

334bu · 11/11/2024 11:29

That isn’t what I meant by ‘soundbite’. I meant a phrase that has leapt into the lexicon, quite suddenly, and is then repeated so frequently over many forms of media that it has incredible reach. The reach isn’t necessarily due to the topic itself, but the mediums used in transmission - and agenda behind that transmission, of course.

You mean like ...
"Transwomen are women!"
"Trans girls belong in female sports.!"

Looks like most Americans weren't convinced and voted accordingly.
The Democratic party must get its act together, be open to debate and listen to the electorate, if it is to have any chance of regaining power.

The definition of "sound bite" is available in any dictionary and it has not changed over the past decades.

If you are trying to make a point about bots manipulating us to think this is an important issue, you might want to make your case in some other way.

Peregrina · 11/11/2024 12:27

Oh, and by the way, Justine Roberts, who owns this site, has said, publicly, that she would like to be able to host the conversation on here but she's worried because the advertisers who advertise with mumsnet have been threatened by transactivists and, without them, the site folds.

Let's hope then that the tide is turning and the advertisers will soon be able to tell the transactivists where to get off. Things have changed. Two years ago I don't think I would have been able to make this post.

Datun · 11/11/2024 12:29

Peregrina · 11/11/2024 12:27

Oh, and by the way, Justine Roberts, who owns this site, has said, publicly, that she would like to be able to host the conversation on here but she's worried because the advertisers who advertise with mumsnet have been threatened by transactivists and, without them, the site folds.

Let's hope then that the tide is turning and the advertisers will soon be able to tell the transactivists where to get off. Things have changed. Two years ago I don't think I would have been able to make this post.

Agreed.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/11/2024 12:31

CoteDAzur · 11/11/2024 12:24

The definition of "sound bite" is available in any dictionary and it has not changed over the past decades.

If you are trying to make a point about bots manipulating us to think this is an important issue, you might want to make your case in some other way.

It's genuinely astonishing to suggest that women only think men self ID'ing into women's sports, prisons and rape crisis groups is a problem because some bots are telling us it is a problem.

Datun · 11/11/2024 12:31

And yes to soundbite. I've known about that term for bloody decades. It's not new.

In fact, because it's a term that I've known for donkeys years, I generally thought it was a bit passé these days.

The age of the Internet has made soundbite a bit obsolete.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread