This is why so many women voted Trump

[BabyLlamaZen]

I’m not saying it’s right, I’m not saying it’s worth the horrors of the Trump administration (and what other women’s rights will be abolished). However, I can also empathise. Books like this are everywhere in baby sections of bookshops in USA. My american friend is naturally more conservative than myself although hated Trump and didn’t vote for him previously (she abstained and then she went Biden although she says she seriously regrets) and this time she voted Trump. She said this stuff is now everywhere and it’s constant. She also showed me a baby’s ABC book which included B for bisexual (and literally then described it as people who are sexually attracted to either gender). For babies.

I’ve not heard of a case where a female person was re-labelled male simply because they had a hysterectomy. Have you? Are you concerned about this?

Fair point. There’s been a shift from discussing the US election and identity politics to how “brick” is an assigned word.

I’ll come back when it’s on track, I won’t use up posts arguing with someone who claims to believe some humans don’t have a sex

Cabbage is never yesterday

Cabbage tomorrow sealion

Right so that knocks that theory on the head. That removal of gametes changes your sex. It has to be something else.

What was the other thing you said? changing your genitalia?

So the proverbial man caught in the combine harvester that cuts off his genitals? Does that change him from a man to a woman?

I'm going to save time and say you won't be agreeing with that one either.

So that theory is out the window.

You don't change sex because you change your gametes, or your genitals.

It has to be something else.

I'm going to save even more time. And guess that it's just about words. If you say you are, you are.

And that's why you think the book is accurate factual.

If someone says it is, it is.

Not exactly the sort of lesson you want to teach children, but there you go. Some people do.

I agree.

But it does neatly illustrate the OP.

"This is why so many women voted Trump"

It's fascinating to see an admission that even your partner thinks it's age inappropriate. Yet this doesn't cause you to stop and think even at this. Or to may respect what they say and at least pause.

As for race, well kids don't think about it until they are more like 5 or 6 and making a big deal of it, I think helps cause more division rather than inclusion because you fixate and focus on it rather than going 'shrug no big deal, it makes no difference'.

Genuinely I think identity politics has the opposite effect to its intention. There are plenty of signs that diversity training is causing resentment and a backlash rather than improving relationships and understanding with and about minority groups.

Trump's victory encapsulates so much of this, yet the blinkers are firmly on.

I see the blame game amongst the Democrats being about the wrong candidate etc etc. And not enough focus on prioritises and policy which affect daily life. Instead it's intellectual ideas which are inaccessible to all and to many are utter bollocks.

Speaking of bollocks the idea that you can tell the majority of the population that your baby girl was born was bollocks and was wrongly assigned male at birth is the very epitomy of arrogance and tone deafness and doesn't stop him growing a penis and never being able to produce eggs.

The idea that 2 year olds can understand the reproductive cycle and it's nuts and bolts (or bollocks) is insane. I know kids who struggled with it for GCSEs! They can be taught regressive stereotypes at that age though, yes that's correct. (Slow handclap). Yet here we are teaching them at 2 as being fact without even a hint of self awareness or why teaching kids this young about these things might be highly inappropriate.

And we're the bad guys apparently...

That removal of gametes changes your sex

Nobody said this though. you are simply creating a series of straw arguments that you are then trying to shoot down.

Sex is word; it is used to describe whether someone is male or female; these are labels usually designated at birth on the basis of a person’s external genitals. (As the book accurately explains).

You then kept insisting that “sex” can’t be “changed”. What do you mean by that?

Sex is a label, of course we can change the labels we use to describe people. Changing someone’s label doesn’t change their body of course.

With medical technologies we can also change aspects of bodies, in some of the ways that I described, regardless of the labels we apply to them,

I didn't say they were.

I said that sex was immutable. Biological sex, for the avoidance of doubt.

A "female person"?

You mean a woman, surely.

Sex is a word used to describe bodies.

Bodies are real and material: some aspects of our bodies can be altered with the help of medical technologies. Some can’t- (at least in the context of contemporary technologies).

Ah.

Gravity exists. There are many words for it in different languages. And language may change.

However the meaning is immutable because gravity exists and will continue to exist however much you try to push flat earth theory or pretend it doesn't exist or mangle language. Because gravity is and always will be. It just exists. Because gravity is immutable.

The same with sex.

You can try and twist the meaning, you can try and mangle language, you can try and replace it with gender but nope. Sex just is. And will continue to be. Because it's immutable.

You are confusing language and it's usage for a thing or concept that exists outside language usage because it's immutable.

And that's your problem.

We don't fall for that shit here.

Well we were talking about the designation of the words “male” and “ female”. But yes, of course, “woman” also works.

Good. That's clear then. Removal of gametes and alteration of genitalia doesn't change your sex.

And the words for sex are male and female. If someone has a DSD, it might not be clear at birth. In Which case further investigation is required.

But once it's been established for both someone with a DSD, and someone without, you agree it cannot be changed.

So how can that book be accurate? How can a baby have both sexes or neither?

It's called mutilation or if you want to sanitise it with fluffy words, cosmetic surgery.

It still doesn't remotely change your DNA.

Which we can examine and study going back thousands and thousands of years. One line of my family has been studied and they've identified a common ancestor for people sharing the name who existed many thousands of years ago. It's fascinating. They can do this in different ways - but it relies on the male or female component of our DNA.

This doesn't change because one of my ancestors is retrospectively recognised as being transgender either.

Technically oophorectomy and castration... but yes, this appears to be the gist of "You can also remove a person’s gametes".

With medical technologies you can alter the structure of a persons genitals

Yes, you can. Although, given the vast number of physical complications that can arise from gamete removal and structural alteration of genitals, it's unclear why it's apparently so important to do so.

Who and what you are is coded in each and every single cell in your body. There is no way to change that. None. Any changes we make are utterly cosmetic.

End.

We do seem to have strayed from the original premise of the thread.

This.

See this is the kind of attitude I’m trying to dispel in my five year old (and why I think that book might be useful) - That we can tell “who and what someone is” through simple observation of their body. (All we can tell through observation of the body- is what we observe about their body- eg what genitals they have).

Also- We can certainly alter bodies in ways that are far more than “cosmetic”. This is why we draw distinctions between cosmetic procedures and other medical procedures.

That we can tell everything
about “who and what someone is” through simple observation of their body.

Of course you can't tell everything about something by looking at them.
No one has said that.

You can tell what sex someone is after about five seconds of being near them though.
Even after extreme plastic surgery.

See this is the kind of attitude I’m trying to dispel in my five year old

It isn't an "attitude".
It's actual, unchangeable biological fact.

But that's bollocks.

Otherwise how did they identify Richard III body in a carpark?

You are talking quasi-religious nonsense.

Sorry. But just no. I'm just not going to be bullied into indulging this crap, and it's this feeling of being forced into regurgitating this nonsense without thought that's causing a backlash.

Every time you try and push on this, you will entrench and you are liable to end up with more sympathy from moderates who are sick of the militancy that stems from enforcement attempts.

You demonstrate the very core of the OP.

You can tell what sex someone is after about five seconds of being near them though.
Even after extreme plastic surgery

Ain't it the truth.

You can always tell.

You can tell what sex someone is after about five seconds of being near them though

If they are an adult you can almost always tell if they are a man or a woman.

Sometimes it’s ambiguous.

You can’t always tell what their sex was as registered on their birth certificate.