Robert Jenrick on women's rights

[HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott]

From the webchat yesterday:

Justine MN: 'women's rights

@Ereshkigalangcleg bit of a mouthful - says: hi Robert, thanks for doing this could you explain how you would seek to protect the rights of women to
female only spaces when we need them e.g. Rape Crisis service prisons Etc she says transgender identity is one thing but biological sex is more important on some occasions for reasons of safety but also for reasons of privacy and
dignity.

Robert Jenrick:

Thank you well look let let me be very clear - basic biology and common sense matters - of course we must treat people with kindness and compassion but
we've got to be very clear about what a woman is. How we can ensure that female spaces are protected and the rights of women are properly uh supported whether that's changing rooms prisons competitive sport we've got to protect women's rights.

For my part I've always tried to do that - when I was a minister who had responsibility for example as housing secretary I changed the law so that no new public building can be built in this country unless it has female toilets, and I've always stood up uh for what has I say what I would call Basic biology and common sense. I'm a dad after all to three young daughters I want to ensure that they grow up in a country which recognizes those things and that we
don't blur the lines here and ensure that biology sometimes gets you know
falls by the wayside.

Justine Mumsnet:

'What about those who medically transitioned and have a gender recognition certificate though I mean you are you suggesting they should also be excluded on the basis of the biological sex they were born with or ...

Robert Jenrick: 'you this is where it becomes tricky. Right, well I think we have to be clear what what a woman is, and what a transman is. I think we have to treat people with kindness and compassion and it is right that people find happiness and dignity in their lives however they wish but that does not mean that a trans man should be using women's toilets, changing rooms, should be alongside women in prisons, should be competing alongside women in competitive Sports.

I take a strong view on this I appreciate that this is a contentious issue and not everyone will agree with me but that is my position. I think that is the best way that we can protect women like my daughters my wife my mum, the women that
I want to see have their rights protected now and in the future.

Justine Mumsnet:

'Okay. just to be clear I think you mean trans women not trans man yeah you mean, you know you you mean a - a woman, someone who transitioned to be a woman.'

Robert Jenrick:

'Yeah'.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_live_events/5197593-zoomchat-with-robert-jenrick-mp-tuesday-29th-october-5pm

It was a slip of the tongue!
I'm not surprised he gets confused, my brain is scrambled when I look at a woman but see a man.
I was parked up in South Africa looking out to sea, a deserted spot with no buildings, when a man dressed in a long red sequined dress was knocking on my window, his grinning lipsticked mouth with only a pane of glass between us, freaked me out.
Nor do I believe that thousands of men have been saved from a life in the wrong body by wearing fishnets and lipstick, especially when they claim to be Lesbian.

There is a dilemma though by barring any man from from women's spaces. It follows that transmen must use men's spaces, which wouldn't be popular.

I think that is the best way that we can protect women like my daughters my wife my mum, the women that I want to see have their rights protected now and in the future.

Yes, yes, Bob, but what about women other than your own womenfolk?

There is a dilemma though by barring any man from from women's spaces. It follows that transmen must use men's spaces, which wouldn't be popular.

Surely not?

There is a dilemma though by barring any man from from women's spaces. It follows that transmen must use men's spaces, which wouldn't be popular.

Why does that follow?

Yes, I'd rather he'd said men. Because it absolutely indicates not only an understanding of the issue (it's not because they're trans, it's because they're male), but also suggests a disagreement with the ideologically forced language.

Personally, it sounded to me like he would absolutely use the language, but realised the optics of sport, prisons and now, hopefully toilets.

I don't think he, or very many men at all, will ever get it in the way that women do.

I know or have heard of a quite a few. A lot of working class people became quite radicalised during the lockdown. Where I live you would see them out and about with stalls in the local park, trying to engage people on the street and in other public places. Some have decided to home school.

There was also national media article a while back about an alternative school which had been set up for the children of such people which was proving quite controversial.

I think there is a bit of a cross-over between some Reform voters and those who were anti-vaccination, anti-lockdown and so on:

....But in recent years inspectors have found a growing number of non-religious schools set up by people radicalised during the Covid-19 pandemic into an anti-state, and sometimes conspiratorial, ideology.At the same time the number of home-schooled children has increased rapidly, from 60,000 in 2018 to 86,000 in 2023, according to most recent figures published by the government.
Last year The Times discovered an illegal school set up in Sussex three years ago by anti-vaccine activists and former members of the far right.

Just started watching and off the bat he’s described Mumsnetters as Justine’s ‘followers’ - I”m not thinking this is going to go well; it looks like the usual politician who doesn’t think Mumsnetters are a serious bunch and platitudes will do to placate the weemin.

I’ve finished watching and I think Jenrick was a poor show compared to Badenoch: he didn’t seem as much across his brief as she did, he gave pat answers that were light on details whereas she gave lots of details with explanations of her thinking.

Badenoch comes across as a person who is in politics and Jenrick comes across as a politician - based on the MN interviews, I prefer Badenoch.

I agree, UtopiaPlanitia

There is a dilemma though by barring any man from from women's spaces. It follows that transmen must use men's spaces, which wouldn't be popular.

I really don't want to derail the thread by turning it into yet another rehash of other sex/gender threads ....
But I'll take this opportunity to say that thank goodness the EA2010 already covers transmen in women's spaces.
If there are proportionate means/legitimate reasons to exclude a transman on the basis of their perceived maleness then they can be legally excluded. Think in terms of women's sports and a woman on T that should never be allowed. In a women only maternity ward where a bearded person shows up. No one has the time for "actually I am a woman I've just taken testosterone for 10 years" sorts of conversations. It's a flat out no. Which is fine.
Likewise transwomen too. When it comes to women's spaces, they are exclusionary by definition.

I fear that Jenrick's confusion is a general one, i.e. that 'transman' is a TiM and 'transwoman' is a TiF. If this is the case it explains a great deal. But he wants sex segregated spaces for women, including excluding transwomen from women's sports. Pity he did not fix it earlier.

Of course, I got that wrong, Told you it messes with my brain!

I'm a bit baffled Jenrick has got as far as he has done.

It’s clear what he means. “Trans man” for a man who is transgender makes much more sense. “Trans woman” to describe a man is ideological language forced on us all. Also many people are confused by the language because it is counterintuitive. I even saw Eddie Izzard refer to himself as a “trans guy” in an interview once.

I wonder if there's an argument to be had that 'trans' identity means more like: 'someone who asks to not be classified by sex'.

This phrase maybe shows both sides' arguments quite clearly.

Does anyone know when the vote is?

Voting completed by 31 oct, the announcement a couple of days later.

Thank you

WRT politicians having been briefed before an appearance, it's the civil service who brief them, and the civil service is totally TWAW. See employment tribunals where civil servants are suing other civil servants for saying 'only women menstruate'.

This is how it becomes embedded into policy that is then rolled out across the entire public sector. The various SEENs, especially in the civil service, challenge the language in all the policies they have access to, but it's a real fight all the time.

Yes, it's a huge problem.

I suspect he pronounces it, at least internally, with very little pause between "Trans" and "man", like it's referring to some kind of superhero.

"Dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner dinner TRANSMAN!!!"
"Is it a man, is it a woman? No, it's TRANSMAN!!!"
"This is Clark Kent, an ordinary reporter on the Daily Planet. He needs to find a telephone box so he can change into a pretty dress with a big 'T' on the front and become TRANSMAN!!!"

The Civil Service are captured. However, IIRC, KB said in a previous interview several months ago that her staff told her not to meet with Keira Bell...but she did anyway. And she's obviously read the source material - the law, the guidance, the cases - and not just relied on briefings or digests. She looked at the evidence and made up her own mind. Anyone can do that if they are so inclined.

Yes, she seemed to say in her MN webchat that politicians need to be more assertive wrt civil servants.

Definitely Arabella, Kemi doesn’t strike me as a Jim Hacker politician.