Robert Jenrick on women's rights

[HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott]

From the webchat yesterday:

Justine MN: 'women's rights

@Ereshkigalangcleg bit of a mouthful - says: hi Robert, thanks for doing this could you explain how you would seek to protect the rights of women to
female only spaces when we need them e.g. Rape Crisis service prisons Etc she says transgender identity is one thing but biological sex is more important on some occasions for reasons of safety but also for reasons of privacy and
dignity.

Robert Jenrick:

Thank you well look let let me be very clear - basic biology and common sense matters - of course we must treat people with kindness and compassion but
we've got to be very clear about what a woman is. How we can ensure that female spaces are protected and the rights of women are properly uh supported whether that's changing rooms prisons competitive sport we've got to protect women's rights.

For my part I've always tried to do that - when I was a minister who had responsibility for example as housing secretary I changed the law so that no new public building can be built in this country unless it has female toilets, and I've always stood up uh for what has I say what I would call Basic biology and common sense. I'm a dad after all to three young daughters I want to ensure that they grow up in a country which recognizes those things and that we
don't blur the lines here and ensure that biology sometimes gets you know
falls by the wayside.

Justine Mumsnet:

'What about those who medically transitioned and have a gender recognition certificate though I mean you are you suggesting they should also be excluded on the basis of the biological sex they were born with or ...

Robert Jenrick: 'you this is where it becomes tricky. Right, well I think we have to be clear what what a woman is, and what a transman is. I think we have to treat people with kindness and compassion and it is right that people find happiness and dignity in their lives however they wish but that does not mean that a trans man should be using women's toilets, changing rooms, should be alongside women in prisons, should be competing alongside women in competitive Sports.

I take a strong view on this I appreciate that this is a contentious issue and not everyone will agree with me but that is my position. I think that is the best way that we can protect women like my daughters my wife my mum, the women that
I want to see have their rights protected now and in the future.

Justine Mumsnet:

'Okay. just to be clear I think you mean trans women not trans man yeah you mean, you know you you mean a - a woman, someone who transitioned to be a woman.'

Robert Jenrick:

'Yeah'.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_live_events/5197593-zoomchat-with-robert-jenrick-mp-tuesday-29th-october-5pm

... and the Telegraph headline can be read to imply that "transwomen" are no longer male. The language is so unhelpful (except to transactivists).

I'd far rather hear clearly set out views I disagree with than fudged and weaseled soundbites that deliberately avoid any honest response lest it clash with the carefully calibrated focus group answers.

A number of working class Reform voters have removed their children from state education and are home schooling. They don't trust schools not to teach children that there are 100 genders and to permit boys into girls facilities.

Really?do you have a source for this? Or by 'a number' do you just mean 'a family I know'?

Obviously, the language is batshit, and it's deliberate. Forcing people to call men women, even if they put the word trans in front of it.

And yes, he clearly thinks that men should be staying out of women's spaces. So that's all good.

However, if you can't get the lingo right when you're specifically addressing it, it says to me, that you don't really appreciate how we got into this mess in the first place. In which case you may not appreciate how to get out of it.

One of the reasons why trans ideology has made such strides, is precisely down to the language it forces people to use.

it really does need addressing.

It may be a small proportion of MNers who have a vote, but a small proportion of a very large number is still a large number. And there's also the knock on effect - extracts from KB's chat with MN were reported in the Telegraph, whose readers almost certainly include a significant proportion of party members

Many mumsnetters have atted me since I accused Jenrick of living in a time machine. They've pointed out a several years old survey by yougov that says that, at the time of the survey, a large minority of people mixed up so called transwoman and transman.

I think it's a bit irrelevant to quote statistics about how many people use this vocabulary. (For a start, this movement has exploded in the general awareness in the last 2-3 years so any survey undertaken before that time has become quickly out of date).

But more importantly, this has shown that the issue (women's sex based rights) is not high on Jenrick's list of priorities. He has not taken the time to learn two of the most relevant words to the topic.

So a third of people don't know what transwoman means? Is Jenrick happy to be as ignorant as the bottom third of society on other policy areas?

Edit to add - ok, the Survation study was last summer and the proportion who thought transwoman meant FTM was 17%.

17% is small. It's no excuse for a man with ambitions to be our PM.

He's not the sharpest tool in the box, I think that's pretty clear. Perhaps it's more a comment on the general calibre of MPs. When you think of some of the boneheads on the Labour benches...

They've pointed out a several years old survey by yougov that says that, at the time of the survey, a large minority of people mixed up so called transwoman and transman.

Nope, only last year.

(For a start, this movement has exploded in the general awareness in the last 2-3 years so any survey undertaken before that time has become quickly out of date).

But not this one, because it was only taken last year.

I don't think Jenrick should have to use obfuscatory, ideological activist terms like "trans woman" to mean a male. I do think he needs to understand the issue and express himself clearly.

The language is purposely confusing, so I'll give him a pass for saying the wrong term in a live interview.

What im getting from that exchange is that he does believe that women have the right to single sex services, but once reminded of the law, says thats the tricky bit. Rather than expand and talk about how the GRA and EqA can be adapted to work, or how they cant and therefore what has to change, he just repeats what he thinks should happen.

So basically doing what the Conservatives have been doing for years - kicking it into the long grass and hoping society, not politicians sorts it out.

YY @illinivich

MN has 8 million users. Not a stretch to say that a large chunk of Tory members may use this site.

Roughly a third of MNers said they were Tory voters in 2022, according to this data:

www.mumsnet.com/news/just-one-quarter-of-swing-vote-women-say-conservatives-are-putting-real-effort-into-attracting-women-voters

Actually, sorry, rereading that:

'Mumsnet surveyed 1,118 users between 22 July and 16 August. Responses were collected online and are unweighted. Full dataset is available on request.

33% of respondents were in the “Conservative swing or undecided voters” group – those women whose votes we describe as being up for grabs by the party at the next election. This group includes those who have voted Conservative or intend to vote Conservative (but have not done so consistently), from 2017 to present, and those who 'don't know' who they would vote for in an upcoming election.'

Unfortunately I don't see a further breakdown of actual Tory voters. 'Undecided' is potentially a bigger group.

I'll see.if I can find any other data.

Can't even find out how many members the Conservatives have!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c33n6311577o.amp

For comparison, the Telegraph has just over 700,000 subscribers (print + digital), and 49% are Conservative voters.

Don't know what proportion are actual members.

Yes, I edited my comment before you replied. Survation, June 2023, 17% thought transwoman means FTM. 17% is quite low. It's less than the proportion of kids who fail English GCSE, for example. (Where "pass" is grade 4 or above).

I'm not completely sure what your stance is regarding Jenrick's ignorance. That it's justified, because the vocabulary was concocted deliberately to be confusing?

Both can be true: the vocabulary used by trans-ideologists is (deliberately) counter intuitive, but a politician who cannot grasp it must be very wilfully ignorant or disingenuous or of slow understanding.

Either way at best he is spectacularly badly briefed. To come on Mumsnet with its Terf Towers reputation and not to expect a question on this issue to the point that he doesn't know the terminology and doesn't know the law is a pretty poor showing.

Question: 'When you hear someone described as a transgender woman, what do you think this means?
– Someone registered as male/a boy at birth
– Someone registered as female/a girl at birth
– Don’t know'

'Both terms [trans woman and transgender woman] were correctly understood by fewer than two-thirds of those asked. The remaining responses split roughly evenly between those who misunderstood, and those who were not sure.'

It's not accurate to say that these terms are widely well understood, imo.

However, it also seems clear that Jenrick understands very little about the subject in general. Certainly compared to Badenoch, his answer lacked depth and specifics.

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/08/07/clarity-matters-how-placating-lobbyists-obscures-public-understanding-of-sex-and-gender/

Yes in clearer terms, and as per the link shared above:
just under 2/3 understood
Approx 17% unsure
Approx 17% got it the wrong way around, as Jenrick did.

17% is commensurate with the proportion of the population who have difficulties with the English language in general (eg due to EAL, SEN, etc), eg comparing with GCSE stats

Not where I'd place Robert Jenrick in terms of his English language aptitude.

In my view, he's ignorant and/or lazy and/or deceitful in this matter

I'm not completely sure what your stance is regarding Jenrick's ignorance. That it's justified, because the vocabulary was concocted deliberately to be confusing?

I've been clear what my stance is. That he needs to be clear, but he doesn't need to use the jargon of the ideology.

OK I'd agree with you on that.

Unfortunately he's been neither clear nor used the ideological jargon ("correctly").

I would actually take 'transwoman' to be male and 'transgender woman' to be a woman who had transitioned. I do know that both terms are used to describe men, but what I think on hearing it differs.

I always struggle to fill in surveys because I overthink the question.

Unfortunately he's been neither clear nor used the ideological jargon ("correctly").

Yes, agree.

I would actually take 'transwoman' to be male and 'transgender woman' to be a woman who had transitioned. I do know that both terms are used to describe men, but what I think on hearing it differs.

I always struggle to fill in surveys because I overthink the question.

I think there were some minor differences in perception in that survey too, but not enough to be significant.