On Mermaids having to listen to Cass: “ This is so blatant and evil I have no idea why decent human beings let this happen.”

[Zahariel]

Cross posting is poor form.

but.

the responses to Mermaids having to listen to Cass on trans Reddit is just staggering and I think an important window into the minds of the people furthest in on this delusion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1gb26kv/charity_commission_is_instructing_mermaids_and/

“Cass and her supporters need to feck right off already. I'm sick of it being peddled around to try to legitimise crap, especially when it's been widely debunked by the rest of the world and professionals within the UK too. They keep LYING and pretending like it's "soo scientific" when it simply isn't and i'm sick of the lies and i'm sick of the British public slurping those lies up off the boots of the red tories.”

AliasGrace47, I saw that the LGB Alliance are exploring how best to support students. It might be worth contacting them to see if they are starting some sort of network at the university you'll be attending. https://lgballiance.org.uk/student-network/

I did think about contacting them. I probs will, it would be a way of meeting different people. I'm sure most people (esp girls)

Part of the way these ideas have got such a hold of people is that the moderator's thumbs have been firmly on the scales initially on Twitter and still on Reddit.

at my uni (Oxford) realise how dangerous gender ideology has become, & disapprove. I do seriously disapprove of the LGB Alliance's partnership w the Heritage Foundation, who want to outlaw sexual orientation discrimination & oppose gay marriage, although it's vague what they'll do about the latter. The fact one of the LGB Alliance's founders tweeted (later retracted) seeming to indicate that opposition to gay marriage isn't homophobic, & that gay marriage isn't a key indicator of progress bc not many get married, seems worrying to me, in that it may suggest they would support its US repealing.
I try not to get too worried about it. It seems it's still a hard knock life for lesbians... isolated, discriminated for being gnc, & threatened for rejecting men sexually. 🙁Still, we've always been able to find community eventually, & I'm sure I will, hopefully soon! I'm quite religious, which helps keep me hopeful that this disturbing time will be over soon.
I hope my mum comes around soon to the fact she's not getting a SIL, bc it'd be nice to have her support. I have no doubt she'll say, ' Why do you have to live this hard life?' Hmmph!

Yes the mods are really creepy on a lot of the boards. I'll probs delete my account soon of there's no improvement, which seems unlikely.

There was historically a strand of LGB activism that was opposed to same-sex marriage because it entailed being "just like the straights" rather than having a distinctive countercultural gay or lesbian identity. And another that was opposed to legally requiring the Church of England to conduct same sex marriage ceremonies because it interfered with religious freedom. One option discussed at the time was for marriage to be split in two - a religious marriage and a civil partnership: I think France was a possible example of this model. This would have meant civil partnerships for everyone, and religious organisations would have been free to set their own rules about what marriages they would conduct in top - making their bigotry (if any) apparent. When the Labour government introduced civil partnerships they were for same sex couples only, which made them a second class alternative to marriage for same-sex partners only rather than the radical non-religious alternative that they could have been.

So historically, not all opposition to same sex marriage was homophobic - some was rather radical, aspiring to a different legal framework or a less assimilative social accommodation. And some had concerns over freedom of religious belief - especially since there were alternative proposals available.

Oh, and there's no substantial "partnership w the Heritage Foundation" - just a recognition that sometimes desperate people - parents in particular - who have been ignored by doctors and mainstream media, have no option but to take the only platform that's offered to them.

Thank you for those posts @tweddler I was broadly aware of the stuff on same sex marriage, but good to read about it properly.

tweddler, I do get there were other reasons sometimes why it was opposed. That's interesting about France, I didn't know that.

I've been reading Alison Bechdel's Dykes To Watch Out For comics to cheer myself up (they're v funny & the characters support each other, campaign for actual social issues & party, not argue about microlabels). Anyway, the MC in that is v opposed to marriage, seeing it as a tool to make lgb people conform to corporate culture (US). But the other characters counterargue that there's little more truly radical than saying that 2 same sex people can have as meaningful a marriage a a straight couple. I agree w the latter, but I do appreciate the varied reasons for arguing against.
I do sympathise somewhat w the countercultural view: obvs it's great that straight & lgb people can mostly mix together & form friendships safely, but it does frustrate me a bit when people say, 'My sexuality's just 1 part of me. Why'd I need gay friends?' Ofc that's fine if they're happy that way, but if a straight person lived in a mostly gay environment, they'd probs feel a bit alienated talking about crushes etc too. & being gnc adds another layer to that. Obvs you need other things in common, but esp when you're young & relationships are talked about more, it's nice to have friends w that in common w you & places to congregate. I think often the people who say that are older & settled, & naturally relationships etc are discussed less. In the US, at least some of it, it seems female culture is often v focused on dating & looking feminine, so I get why poss there's more alienated gnc girls transitioning.. Luckily my friends think about other stuff too. I don't think social media helps.
& thank you for explaining about the Heritage Foundation. I'm sorry for my mistake. I agree that parents must be terrified if their children are able to damage their bodies without consent. I worry a lot about my trans man friend. He doesn't look overtly male & so I hope he's not on T.
I see the LGB Alliance has been misrepresented. I did suspect that, I guess I'm over suspicious. I will def contact them. I need a sanity injection!

I believe Baroness Nicholson was opposed to gay marriage due to the effect on women but I can't remember exactly how - someone with a better memory than me might know?

Baroness Nicholson has a v homophobic history. She voted for Section 28 & refused to sign a UN Declaration of Tolerance that included sexual orientation. & why does gay marriage degrade women & girls? Bc it lets 2 men marry? Strange..
I get that the GC movement desperately needs allies, but I wish we weren't dependent on people like her. Hopefully the current government will see sense.

Was Baroness Nicholson concerned for religious reasons? Some religious people felt marriage was wrongly redefined but the C of E isn't forced to conduct same sex marriage. Plenty of atheists disagree w religion & marry in registry offices etc- surely they've also devalued marriage as a sacred union if they marry w no belief in God? Marriage doesn't belong to religion, it's also a secular institution.

I believe I have read her interviews where she took advice from
her homosexual friends who were the activists who were, at the time, rejecting marriage for the reasons mentioned already. And the homosexual people who were very concerned about the sexual abuse at the time that they had experienced or knew of because of safeguarding lapses. If I remember correctly, there were groups of homosexual activists who voiced their concerns and she was advised by them.

The LGB Alliance doesn't have a partnership with the Heritage Foundation.

I think “chopping their tits off” is a very dismissive and unkind way of referring to people transitioning and a very serious and life changing operation. Saying that, I really agree with you about chronic MH underfunding.

Is there somewhere in the middle here?

That yes, some people who really struggle to find a sense of self (resulting from many different things) might erroneously belief that changing gender might help them to feel more complete.

And fhat there are people who are experience genuine gender dysphoria and have a deeply held sense (from an early age) they would feel more themselves in a different body.

And that we need to consider very carefully social transitioning in childhood could be deeply disturbing once adolescence hits…

The arguments seem very polarised to me… is the truth of it not more complex and nuanced? As with most things

Is there complexity and nuance in the face of the reality of treatment decisions?

I would ask when it comes to children and young people, how many of them are acceptable collateral to be given irreversible treatments for what is now recognised as ‘not a medical condition’, making gender identities only a philosophical belief, and one that no clinician seems to be able to predict which child or young person will persist with even in a few years, let alone 10 years?

What is the nuanced position when it comes to putting that position into action?

Exactly, I think those are really good, complex questions. How do we support children and young people who are deeply distressed due to gender dysphoria? How do we offer thorough psychological assessments and formulations of their histories and needs and provide them with education? How do we help them and their families to navigate such challenges without aligning with polarised groups. How do we stop premature (and as you say, irreversible and potentially enormously damaging) action and encourage thoughtfulness and curiosity, without leaving a child or young person feeling deeply misunderstood and disbelieved. I think it’s enormously challenging area

Do you have any suggestions?

Keeping in mind this is now, as per academics and trans people themselves reporting, not a medical condition. It is a philosophical belief.

And fhat there are people who are experience genuine gender dysphoria and have a deeply held sense (from an early age) they would feel more themselves in a different body.

You mean they imagine that they would prefer to have a different body and they have a deeply held belief that changing it would make them feel better.

If you think about what you've written for a moment you can see that it makes no sense to say someone 'would feel more themself' if they had a body that wasn't their actual body. Their actual body is what and who they are. Imagining that changing something about it would make them happier is a common feeling, and why people have cosmetic surgery, but it can't possibly make someone 'feel more themself' because by definition they have changed a fundamental part of themself by making that change to their body.

And they have absolutely no idea how they will feel after they have made that change. They might hate the new body even more.

And what is gender dysphoria anyway? It seems to be a name that has been invented to describe a number of different symptoms experienced by various groups of people.

A teenage girl who doesn't want to be a woman is not experiencing the same thing as a middle-aged heterosexual male who is aroused by the thought of himself as a woman. Yet the symptoms experienced by both of them are given the label 'gender dysphoria'.

Helle, that's awful about sexual abuse. But surely gay couples aren't more likely to abuse children than hetero men and women? Was she referring to this when she said it lowered women's status? Did they mean that in the rush to push marriage through, adoptive gay couples weren't being checked through properly?

OldCrone, you've hit the nail on the end. Mutilating your body should never be the only possible treatment.

eat figs, yes, I'm sorry for writing that. I was misinformed by reddit.

I can’t answer your questions. My point is that perhaps categorising her actions as phobic and hateful is not considering the full story and what some lesbian and gay people were saying at the time. Plus it is categorising her actions with years of hindsight that were not available at the time for lawmakers to make well considered decisions.

Have you checked what she thinks now?

You made this statement “Baroness Nicholson has a v homophobic history.” Have you tracked her voting history against what some LGB activists were also saying at the time?

(edit). Are you now also repeating what you have read on reddit about Baroness Nicholson without delving further into her views and the information available to her and others at the time?

I think “chopping their tits off” is a very dismissive and unkind way of referring to people transitioning and a very serious and life changing operation. Saying that, I really agree with you about chronic MH underfunding.

Anyone is removing a healthy body part, should have it framed in that way. Why? Because they need to fully deal with the decision to do so. If it's 'dismissive' then I'm sorry but they aren't mentally fit to do it. They should be able to cope with anything and everything thrown at them in terms of challenging the decision in order for that decision to be a sound one precisely because of the ethical and mental health considerations here.

Have you thought that one impact has now been that male couples demand ‘fertility equality’? Which demands that surrogates be made available to them so they can exploit a female body to produce a child on demand?

This is just one impact off the top of my head. NO person should have the right to exploit a female body to produce a child on demand. Yet we have had posters try to frame women stating this as those women being homophobic.