On Mermaids having to listen to Cass: “ This is so blatant and evil I have no idea why decent human beings let this happen.”

[Zahariel]

Cross posting is poor form.

but.

the responses to Mermaids having to listen to Cass on trans Reddit is just staggering and I think an important window into the minds of the people furthest in on this delusion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1gb26kv/charity_commission_is_instructing_mermaids_and/

“Cass and her supporters need to feck right off already. I'm sick of it being peddled around to try to legitimise crap, especially when it's been widely debunked by the rest of the world and professionals within the UK too. They keep LYING and pretending like it's "soo scientific" when it simply isn't and i'm sick of the lies and i'm sick of the British public slurping those lies up off the boots of the red tories.”

I've been Witches by Stacey Schiff, about the Salem witch trials, and on the subject of why people believed in witches, she says:

"We all subscribed to preposterous beliefs; we just don't know yet which ones they are. We too have been known to prefer plot to truth; to deny the evidence before us in favour of the ideas behind us; to do insane things in the face of reason."

In fact the whole debacle is somewhat reminiscent of this modern debate. A small group begins to make wild assertions, and quickly it becomes easier for those around them to "believe", rather than being on the wrong side of this new "truth" and suffering the consequences.

Be kind is well known safeguarding loophole that can result in actions not being taken or niggles being ignored.

It's extremely significant that society has been groomed to place kindness before safety.

Something happened today which reminded me of this issue. I've been thinking of getting a more obvs gay haircut (I thought I was bi but now think I might be lesbian). Anyway, I posted in a lesbian subreddit about how to deal w my mum's reaction to this- she's mostly great, but takes great offence if you trim your hair to so much as a bob, & she veers between being ok & bit icked out by my sexuality. The women on the subreddit are mostly older lesbians & they all gave kind & appropriate advice about managing her reaction. I know older people advising younger people on lgb-related matters could easily misuse their position, but this is a good example of genuine help w nothing inappropriate mixed in.

But I got a posts from young trans man that was absolutely over the top..to say the least.
'I’ve not read your whole post but your mum sounds totally manipulative and frankly pretty horrible. You’re also defending her behaviour so it’s quite clear you’ve been emotionally abused by her but perhaps don’t realise it yet. It may be a long journey ahead of you, but if you took the first step now of not listening to what she says about your hair, you’ll be much further along.I also suggest you listen to/read the book ' I’m Glad My Mum Died' ( tw:mentions of CSA and SA) it will open your eyes to what’s happening to you. From someone who has been through the same, has a similar mother, and essentially lives as a man now against all my mother's '.

That sub is ofc US mostly, & a lot of parents there are still ridiculously homophobic & do sometimes disown their children. But I had written in my post that my mum has a background of great trauma, & this was ignored completely to encourage me to cut ties over this issue. & the implication that getting a more boyish haircut means I want to be a man! Grrr. .

A lot of intelligent people believe this guff. Neither intelligence nor education are a guard against falling for idiocy.

Jesus is not the son of the deity, he is the deity, in the person of the son. E.g. a person may be a doctor, a wife, a mother, a sister, an aunt, a cousin, a daughter, an artist - these are all aspects of her being. Hinduism explains it better, I think.

That's the mentality at play in many subreddits. They function as a self reinforcing echo chamber where these people's (often quite young and socially unaware people) extreme views and planet-sized sense of resentment never face any challenge, and anyone even slightly dissenting from the TRA line would be banned.

Fair enough.

I feel the same about conceding to this "fact" correction as I do about gender identity:

I'm happy for those who believe that sex is "assigned at birth" or Jesus is a "deity, in the person of the son" to hold this belief. To me, sex is observed at birth and Jesus was simply a person (of whom there are historical records).

What I would not be happy about in either case is being told to accept them as factually true. I don't.

Thankfully Christians aren't demanding that I accept and use the "fact" about Jesus in my everyday life, whereas genderists are about sex, and about gender identity being more important.

I agree - that’s what I said in my second paragraph. I feel it’s almost worse when otherwise intelligent, logical people try to push this harmful quasi religious belief system.

Since when is very short hair a 'gay' haircut ?
That will come as rather a shock to several of my married middle aged friends.

Wtf have I just read.

Talkin, I don't just mean very short hair, I said a 'more obvs gay' haircut. I'm thinking an undercut. I know some straight girls have these, but they are more common w lesbians & are a signifier.

It's v funny bc my mum is also frightened of straight women w short hair. One of my straight friends has a pixie cut, & she keeps warning me not to shorten mine anymore. But she's great in (almost) everything else, just a bit into online conspiracy theories 🙄.

@MNHQ, was I deleted for comparing TRAs to Jehovah's Witnesses or other cults? I have read several accounts of JWs that seem to share cult characteristics to me, although I don't know much about the whole movement, and I apologise if I have caused any offence to members who don't employ these tactics.
I do believe that gender ideology has many of the characteristics of a cult. I've seen this opinion stated here multiple times without deletion. Is it banned now? I understand if you're trying to sacrifice a bit to save most of FWR sex and gender. But I think it's a shame the TRAs will this degree of power over MN.

It comes and goes a bit. This is half term, there are lots of twitchy-fingered complainers around.

I love the idea that a hare brained blue hair crew thinks they are offended by being compared to a particular branch of the Christian faith, and wants to report a post on the mumsnet about it.

I know which I'd rather have as a neighbour.

I've seen this opinion stated here multiple times without deletion. Is it banned now?

It's traditionally been targeted by "the monitors" and deleted as against the specific "sex and gender" talk guidelines. Sometimes it's left up, depending on the rest of the post, wording used etc. I suspect sometimes it comes down to whether it gets reported and who at MNHQ is moderating.

BezMills, JWs are a branch of Christianity but they're a pretty extreme and cultish one, at least a large number seem to be.
But yes, TRAs have a lot in common w the kinds of people they claim to oppose. It ends up being like the end of Animal Farm where the pigs look just like the human masters did.

I am not asking you to accept that Jesus is the deity as a fact, I just stated the theological position (the Trinity is a right tooth ache!). I would ask no-one to accept as truth someone else's belief. And I don't accept gender woo, which has much less credence about it than the Resurrection.

My late DH noticed that many intelligent and educated people accept the most idiotic things as reality/truth. Their intelligence and education lead them astray in thinking that they are educated and therefore do not need to look carefully into a matter which they think/assume they understand (because etc. etc.). Amazes me.

I know exactly what you mean, AliasGrace47, I'm just amazed that somebody as young as you seem to be subscribes to the cool-dyke undercut haircut look
There used to be a style which signalled being a lesbian, the cool haircut and jeans and Doc Martens...that sort of thing. On a deep level it was rejecting traditional dress codes for women. On another level was a fun way to spot other lesbians - well the ones who liked that style, there were many who never did.

Then there was a period when I Don't Want To Be Labelled took over, and it was uncool to signal anything except being un-label-able.

Now it's back to being labelled with every letter of the alphabet, and oh look, it's hairstyles again, only this time pink or blue hair...

If you are in the vanguard of a revival of the young kd lang dykey look, circa Ingénue and Shadowlands album covers, that's great, you go girl!

Have fun, that's the important thing, and I hope your mother is OK with it eventually
ps Reddit= 😱

I wonder are people seen as classically 'intelligent' less tuned into what their gut is telling them?

They've learnt to gloss over these feelings in favour of sources they seem to be 'expert'?

There’s been research on this and you’re right. It’s basically, ‘I am a smart person therefore I can’t be wrong’.

In one, I think. You've hit it on the nail.

Thank you, Marie 😊. I love that 90s look, & undercuts & the rest you mentioned are still fashionable now, luckily- it is fun being able to spot it. I def like KD Lang too- sadly there are not many role models like her now. When I was younger the only more masculine/androgynous lesbians I saw in media were people like Julie Bindel, Ruth Davidson or Sandi Toksvig, who I couldn't really relate to.
I know some people w coloured hair, they are genuinely gay but people who just want to seem cool & 'queer' have it too, which is annoying. It's so frustrating that everything's Internet based now, everything descends into performative squabbling over microlabels. & yes, Reddit is a lot of that..
Would it be OK to PM you? It's fine if not, it's just that it's really nice to speak to someone older who remembers how the scene used to be, before things went v backwards in an underhand way..
I'm sure my mum will come to terms w it soon, I'm more concerned about uni. The uni I'm hopefully going to has a well-known gay society, but most of the entertainment seems geared to men from their Facebook posts (Drag queens, Taylor Swift etc). Still, maybe I could try to change that once I'm there? The focus seems to be heavily on trans rights. Otoh it'll probs tough to be GC, otoh this hopefully means trans people will be open about their status & not try to hide it? It was difficult at school, there was a lot of pressure to be v feminine. I have nice friends & 1 close lesbian friend who isn't into that either...until he became a trans man last year, after facing a lot of prejudice from his parents & dealing w their bitter divorce by spending a lot of time online.. & the other GNC lesbian in my year is agender, though she at least hasn't transitioned. Hopefully this will start to calm down by next year..

Definitely. There's lots of academically clever thinkers who couldn't really function in everyday life.