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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC: Rape centre breaks away from charity in row over gender [Glasgow]

67 replies

Tiredofthisnonsense · 24/10/2024 10:49

Some good news for once:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7w322230go

From the article:

"A rape support centre in Glasgow has broken away from the supervision of the umbrella charity Rape Crisis Scotland in a row over gender.
Glasgow and Clyde Rape Crisis said its priority was to provide a single-sex service by an "all-female workforce" - and this was "at odds" with the charity's priorities."

A woman with dark hair, a grey t-shirt and jeans sits on a bed with her head in her hands

Glasgow rape centre breaks away from charity in row over gender

The centre in Glasgow said it only wanted to employ women, but this was "at odds" with Rape Crisis Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7w322230go

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 24/10/2024 14:52

I donated, just a small amount unfortunately, just a thank you for their stand. May many more women only services follow suit. 👍

Speedweed · 24/10/2024 15:05

Donated. Good for them

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 24/10/2024 16:04

Have sent a small donation too. Super easy to do, and brilliant that they are also on Amazon smile.

I hope they recieve many donations today, and that it heartening them!

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 24/10/2024 16:45

Mebebecat · 24/10/2024 11:55

If you go to the Glasgow and Clyde rape crisis centre website, its very easy to donate.

Just to double check, do we know have they definitely changed their links so those donations don't go to a centralised "pot" for Rape Crisis but go directly to the centre now instead? I'd hate to donate and find out the money isn't going to them after all.

NotAtMyAge · 24/10/2024 17:01

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 24/10/2024 16:04

Have sent a small donation too. Super easy to do, and brilliant that they are also on Amazon smile.

I hope they recieve many donations today, and that it heartening them!

I'm afraid Amazon Smile no longer exists. It was closed early last year. I used it for years and was disappointed when Amazon notified me it was closing.

larklane17 · 24/10/2024 17:02

My donation receipt is from Glasgow and Clyde Rape Crisis Limited if that helps you at all?@WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 24/10/2024 17:13

larklane17 · 24/10/2024 17:02

My donation receipt is from Glasgow and Clyde Rape Crisis Limited if that helps you at all?@WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack

That's perfect, thanks! Sounds like they handle their own money.

IwantToRetire · 24/10/2024 17:25

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 24/10/2024 16:45

Just to double check, do we know have they definitely changed their links so those donations don't go to a centralised "pot" for Rape Crisis but go directly to the centre now instead? I'd hate to donate and find out the money isn't going to them after all.

There is no such thing as a central pot of money!

Each Rape Crisis Centre is an autonomous group, and run (however well or badly) by their Trustees, and as such any donations would go to that legal entity.

Rape Crisis Scotland just as Rape Crisis England and Wales is, and they are the administerative group for the 2 federations of Rape Crisis Centes.

And as has been posted on other threads the "standards" of the federation are in fact a joint document by both Federations.

And whilst its really good, and extremely brave of Glasgow and Clyde RCC to break away, the reality is that Rape Crisis Scotland should be made to give up the role of administering the federation in Scotland because they are in breach of their own guidelines.

But in that they wont, maybe the other RCCs in Scotland that have similar guidelines, and being practised, should start their own federation. Reminder that these RCC committed to single sex provision were identified in the report by FWS https://forwomen.scot/04/10/2024/rape-crisis-centres-by-women-and-for-women/

Each of whom could probably do with donations!

This is, not just in the charity sector, but when a group set up to help a network of like minded groups, decides to over step its remit and start to think it can dictate to federated groups rather than performing its function of helping them to do their work. And of course the deadly influence of politicians and funders who love to be able to say they are in touch with frontline groups because they have spoken to a central office.

(Reluctant as I am to have to add a label to the word woman or female, the TRAs have so co-opted these words that particularly for service users it should always be spelt out, ie services are by / for woman (sex) or female sex. Angry

Rape Crisis Centres - by women and for women? - For Women Scotland

Following the problems at ERCC we take a look at each rape crisis centre in Scotland to assess what service is currently provided for women.

https://forwomen.scot/04/10/2024/rape-crisis-centres-by-women-and-for-women

IwantToRetire · 24/10/2024 17:29

I dont think this has been posted but this is their press release. Good to share their own words far and wide.

Glasgow and Clyde Rape Crisis ends membership of Rape Crisis Scotland Oct 24, 2024

Glasgow and Clyde Rape Crisis (GCRC) announces it is leaving the Rape Crisis Scotland (RCS) network. GCRC’s Board has taken the decision following a long and careful review.

A spokeswoman for the Board said:

“As part of our review, we engaged in dialogue with the leadership of RCS to address our concerns, and those of GCRC’s management team, regarding the direction and focus of the network under its stewardship.

“After careful consideration, we have concluded that the interests of our organisation, and those that rely on our services, will be best served and represented outwith membership of RCS. As an independent operator, we will continue to work productively and collaboratively with our sister rape crisis centres.

“This is not a decision we have taken lightly. We have done so to hold fast to our principles and to best serve the women and girls that need our support.

“We were created to provide support by and for women. We believe, and women have consistently told us, that single-sex services delivered by an all-female workforce are crucial to help them heal from sexual trauma. This approach remains our priority but is at odds with RCS’.”

GCRC services will not change. It will continue to support women and girls in the Glasgow and Clyde area who have experienced rape or sexual violence. This includes triaging enquiries from all survivors of rape and sexual abuse to help survivors to identify and access the support they need.

Annually, GCRC supports thirty per cent of all survivors who receive a service from the Scottish rape crisis network, with a service area covering one-fifth of Scotland’s population.

Whilst the relationship between GCRC and RCS is changing, both organisations remain committed to maintaining the current national programmes and services that GCRC delivers. This includes the Scottish Government-funded National Advocacy and National Prevention Projects.

For media enquiries, contact us via [email protected] or call 07751 805 508.

https://www.glasgowclyderapecrisis.org.uk/news/news-on-our-future/

Glasgow and Clyde Rape Crisis ends membership of Rape Crisis Scotland

Glasgow and Clyde Rape Crisis announces it is leaving the Rape Crisis Scotland (RCS) network following a long and careful review.

https://www.glasgowclyderapecrisis.org.uk/news/news-on-our-future

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 24/10/2024 17:29

@IwantToRetire Thanks for explaining. I have no clue what their funding situation is or how it is distributed because I've never worked in the charity sector and (as my user name suggests) I've been suspended for about two years so have missed rather a lot of threads on all this.

KnottedTwine · 24/10/2024 18:38

Some Sandy woman just interviewed on Reporting Scotland trying explain the Scottish policy. In essence she said that she believes trans women are women, but also thinks that biology is important especially in rape crisis support.

Ok then....

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 24/10/2024 18:41

KnottedTwine · 24/10/2024 18:38

Some Sandy woman just interviewed on Reporting Scotland trying explain the Scottish policy. In essence she said that she believes trans women are women, but also thinks that biology is important especially in rape crisis support.

Ok then....

The mere sight of SB gives me the rage. I may have shouted something at the telly.

IwantToRetire · 24/10/2024 18:43

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSportsIsBack · 24/10/2024 17:29

@IwantToRetire Thanks for explaining. I have no clue what their funding situation is or how it is distributed because I've never worked in the charity sector and (as my user name suggests) I've been suspended for about two years so have missed rather a lot of threads on all this.

That's okay. I was thinking, not just because not everybody knows about the charity sector, but not everyone knows about schools, courts or whatever, so if somehow FWR could (self?) create a FWRwiki?

Then it would be something to refer to.

PS Dont think even those in the charity sector know about the whole sector, just the bit they work in. And maybe, or it would seem, even they dont know how their bit of the sector works or should work sadly.

IwantToRetire · 24/10/2024 18:48

KnottedTwine · 24/10/2024 18:38

Some Sandy woman just interviewed on Reporting Scotland trying explain the Scottish policy. In essence she said that she believes trans women are women, but also thinks that biology is important especially in rape crisis support.

Ok then....

I heard that and really thought the interviewer could have asked a follow up question. ie as I tried to explain up thread, it isn't about what one individual believes, let alone an individual in a power position using it to further their personal politics, but about their role.

Could at least have asked, accepting the wishy washy same sex provision might be needed, why then has Glasgow and Clyde RC resigned from the federation.

I thought the introduction to the interview, was in fact quite good. ie making it clear it is about biological women only want to work with, get support from other biological women. Must have had the BBC rainbow staff network getting very cross!

Madlentileater · 24/10/2024 19:56

solidarity, sisters ✊

HarmonicAnalysis · 24/10/2024 20:09

Looks like the BBC article has been updated - don't remember seeing this earlier:

"Katie Cosgrove, co-chair of Glasgow and Clyde Rape Crisis, said the centre was not changing the way its service is run - rather that the decision was to "publicly disassociate" from RCS.

Asked what the impact of the move would be on service users, she said she was "not clear on what kind of impact that might be".

She said she recognised there was a need for trans women to use the service and that the centre had seen a "small number" of trans women - 17 in the last year.

A condition of the charity's funding from the Scottish government is that services are trans-inclusive. The Glasgow centre will continue to support trans women who seek support but will not employ trans women.

Ms Cosgrove said: "We believe very strongly in the rights of women to have single-sex services within a rape crisis setting and we believe, to ensure that they are protected and that risk is minimised, that it should be an all-female workforce."

So this makes it sound as though it won't necessarily be women-only in terms of service users after all. Perhaps it's been misreported by the BBC, as the link posted above to GCRC's own site mentions "triaging enquiries from all survivors of rape and sexual abuse", which to me suggests that male people, if they approached the centre, would be signposted elsewhere.

Confused now.

A woman with dark hair, a grey T-shirt and jeans sits on a bed with her head in her hands

Glasgow rape centre breaks away from charity in row over gender

The centre in Glasgow said it only wanted to employ women, but this was "at odds" with Rape Crisis Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7w322230go

IwantToRetire · 24/10/2024 20:49

HarmonicAnalysis · 24/10/2024 20:09

Looks like the BBC article has been updated - don't remember seeing this earlier:

"Katie Cosgrove, co-chair of Glasgow and Clyde Rape Crisis, said the centre was not changing the way its service is run - rather that the decision was to "publicly disassociate" from RCS.

Asked what the impact of the move would be on service users, she said she was "not clear on what kind of impact that might be".

She said she recognised there was a need for trans women to use the service and that the centre had seen a "small number" of trans women - 17 in the last year.

A condition of the charity's funding from the Scottish government is that services are trans-inclusive. The Glasgow centre will continue to support trans women who seek support but will not employ trans women.

Ms Cosgrove said: "We believe very strongly in the rights of women to have single-sex services within a rape crisis setting and we believe, to ensure that they are protected and that risk is minimised, that it should be an all-female workforce."

So this makes it sound as though it won't necessarily be women-only in terms of service users after all. Perhaps it's been misreported by the BBC, as the link posted above to GCRC's own site mentions "triaging enquiries from all survivors of rape and sexual abuse", which to me suggests that male people, if they approached the centre, would be signposted elsewhere.

Confused now.

I think this is in fact the standard position of most rape crisis centres, ie they will provide or signpost services for men, trans women etc..

But primarily offer women only services to women (in both instances meaning biological).

The difference is that ERCC and RCS (or at least SB) were / are arguing that trans women are women.

If you look at the guidelines from EHRC on advertising single sex posts they say there are 2 types of women only(!!) one is trans inclusive, one is not, ie as per the SSE.

This is why upthread I was saying service provision should be explicit as to which sort of women only it is.

Someone contacting a RCC doesn't have time to work out which schedule of the EA and SDA it is advertised under.

I think the distinct negative impact on women service users is the one MPs need to be confronted with, when saying there is no need to clarify the sex discrimination act.

HarmonicAnalysis · 24/10/2024 21:41

IwantToRetire, yes, absolutely, and I realise that is the standard position of most centres, sadly, because this requirement is a condition of funding. But isn't there a difference between 'providing a service' and 'signposting'? I'd initially thought that GCRC were saying they were breaking away from the RCS umbrella because they want to provide exclusively women-only services - to (actual) women, by (actual) women, which is brilliant. But the BBC article now makes it look as though they are still providing a service to males ('transwomen') even though the workforce is fully female, whereas GCRC's own link suggests that it's more signposting - i.e. if you are male, go to those other places because we are female only. Which I wouldn't really call 'providing a service' any more than it would be for a children's dance teacher to tell me that I'd need to go to adult beginner classes and not her Tiny Tots class if I wanted to learn ballet from scratch. She'd be signposting me to other, more suitable provision because she's not providing that service to me.

I'm more inclined to go with GCRC's own info than the BBC report, as we know how things can be 'spun', but it's a shame that there seems to be conflicting information. As you say, there's enough confusion around this as it is!

JellySaurus · 24/10/2024 23:59

Might the triage be that GCRC will provide support and counselling to all victims of rape, regardless of their sex or beliefs, but service-users wishing to access group situations will be directed to single-sex groups, ie TW would access group therapy with other males, or signposted to other services should they object. So they will still be providing therapy to TW, but all staff will be female, and no female service user will be expected to validate males.

IwantToRetire · 25/10/2024 02:32

JellySaurus · 24/10/2024 23:59

Might the triage be that GCRC will provide support and counselling to all victims of rape, regardless of their sex or beliefs, but service-users wishing to access group situations will be directed to single-sex groups, ie TW would access group therapy with other males, or signposted to other services should they object. So they will still be providing therapy to TW, but all staff will be female, and no female service user will be expected to validate males.

Yes - and not all funders put in conditions of funding as proposed in other post.

Long before there was any TRAs targetting women's services, many support services started offering if not direct support, finding suitable services (many of which they had had to train staff to do the work) for men.
The issue was, not TRAs, but MRAs going on about WATM.

And despite everybody saying well men could just get on and set up centres as women did for women, somehow they were never made to do this and women were expected to take on the work. (If you want something done ask a busy woman.)

A lot of the women's groups who have quite a loud profile at the moment are in fact very recent groups, with little or no understanding of the development of WLM objectives into actual services.

Also because they were formed recently during the rise of TRA they have this single vision response to any situation.

Far, far more women's services have lost their funding because the patriarchy (of which funders, local councillors etc are all part of) that firstly dont rate or understand the need for women only service, and secondly think women are so unimportant that cutting women only services wont matter because so few will care. And how right they are.

The only difference with the current MANifestation of outright sexism of the TRAs is that they are more blatant. But they would never have got the stranglehold they have if MRAs hadn't created the enviroment where women's services, women survivors, were just not worth bothering about.

It is the entrenched anti women attitudes that the TRAs have thrived on.

If there was or had been any respect for women in society the TRAs would have been laughed out of the public realm the first time they acted against women.

So, whilst I know MNHQ have tried to make FWR just about gender identity, it is and was Feminism and Women's Rights.

Those who have just become engaged in the issue of women's rights, because of TRA maybe just dont understand how this is just the lastest wave of male culture against the changes that started under Women's Liberation.

I think up thread I gave the link to the Standards that members of both the Scottish and English federations of Rape Crisis Centres.

It might help to read them.

Just to repeat from an earlier thread, most centres offer trans inclusive services and women only (sex based) services.

Dont forget Roz Adams supports trans inclusive services. Her objections were that there was no committment to tell women services users whether support being offered was trans inclusive.

This is because both WM and SB were unprofessional and used their positions of power to impose their political beliefs on service users.

I think a lot of groups writing about this in quite a gung ho fashion have a very superficial knowledge of the history of the provision of services.

But on the bright side, if all the women who are willing to be critical online, etc., about the lack of truely women only services, were to become part of women's groups providing services just think how the impact of women with gender critical views on service provision.

Sad

Just to add and its too late at night to work out where to add this, but part of the very effective back lash against Women's Liberation, was what became known as 3rd Wave Feminism, that was harshly critical of 70s feminist women's sex based rights, and were if anything the first product of queer politics in university. And their anti women's sex based rights approach, and the focus on gender etc., were the forerunners of the politics of TRAs.

And sadly many women were very active in promoting queer politics over women's politics.

INeedAPensieve · 25/10/2024 08:52

A very good post, thank you @IwantToRetire

BlackeyedSusan · 25/10/2024 08:56

KnottedTwine · 24/10/2024 18:38

Some Sandy woman just interviewed on Reporting Scotland trying explain the Scottish policy. In essence she said that she believes trans women are women, but also thinks that biology is important especially in rape crisis support.

Ok then....

So trans women are not women then. Possibly Schrödinger's women according to her...

MindatWork · 25/10/2024 09:03

I’ve just donated, have been in tears reading all the messages from others who have donated in the last couple of days. I hope they get a real bump from this 🥹

MortgageQuestions22 · 25/10/2024 09:19

A very sensible move from GCRC. I’ve just donated to their JustGiving page. The focus needs to be brought back to women and girls who need this vital support!