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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Butlin's Skegness removes 5 trans women from female toilets

163 replies

TERFtown · 09/10/2024 20:19

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1843952648460140987?s=46&t=p6GESSn09HWHVXYgTLIbJg

(I don't want to call them "trans women", but I don't know what terminology gets me banned here!)

"Security guards removed five cross-dressing men, including this one, from the women's toilets at Bang Face, a dance festival at Butlin's Skegness this weekend. The men responded with a coordinated protest and the security guards have now "been removed""

Anyone up for a TERFy weekend in Butlin's?!? Wine

OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 10/10/2024 09:41

Notamum12345577 · 10/10/2024 09:01

Were they cross drawing or trans? There is a difference. Cross dressing is what it says on the tin, they are just dressing in women’s clothes sometimes. If trans they are living full time dressed as a woman/trying to behave as a woman does.

The only difference is whether the male person says they are a woman or not.

Whether they are “living full time dressed as a woman/trying to behave as a woman does.” they are still male people, and never ‘women’.

Because no male person can ever say what it feels like to be a 'woman'. None. And any male at any time can say they are transgender and it has to be considered true, doesn’t it?

sashh · 10/10/2024 09:45

TheBleachBoyz · 10/10/2024 07:08

Bangface is a festival which takes over the entire camp. There would not be any under 18s on site @NPET

It is also a festival that will have TWAW as a core belief. Therefore the security staff would not have been acting in line with the organisers’ policies.

Just acting in line with the law. Personally I think that is more important.

Helleofabore · 10/10/2024 09:49

For those reading along on this thread, just a reminder that we have recently been shown just how people's transgender identities are based on philosophical belief.

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves.

Therefore the only commonality for people with transgender identities is that their philosophical belief. Meaning no one needs to comply with another persons philosophical belief. No one.

No male can ever experience “life as a woman.” They are not living life as a woman. No matter how much they are trying.

They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman. Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. They are not a woman. It is rather misogynistic that they believe they are acting like a woman or living as a woman.

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome.

Which is that they will always be just a male person who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.
No matter how kind or respectful that person who is trying to shame you into complying to use that language tells you that it is to use the preferred language, it is someone who is demanding that you support their own philosophical belief.

And no one has to pretend that any person on this earth has changed sex or is the sex they identify as but is materially not.
And those attempting to shame others in doing so, are not the 'kind' people that they would have you believe.

And no male person can ‘live as a woman’.

OuterSpaceCadet · 10/10/2024 09:55

TheBleachBoyz · 10/10/2024 07:48

The nature of Bangface is relevant, though. It’s not a literary or a cooking festival. It’s a dance festival that is very “woke”, if you care for that phrase.The majority of the attendees will believe TWAW. And it isn’t clear that anyone complained, as opposed to staff taking action (staff may be in the toilet area because of drug taking).

I disagree. Loads of people I know are into dance music but also understand female oppression and biological reality. The arts and music are just so fucking captured by this neo religion (and so precarious to be employed in) that it's simply too dangerous to speak out.

I also think that art and music are different from say, shopping, or watching a film, in that one tends to interpret the meaning of the piece for oneself. So I don't boycott musicians I like just because they believe misogynist rubbish, whereas I wouldn't be able to tolerate the same from a comedian because it would probably leak into their work too much.

In general I find dance music events less aggressive for obvious reasons; discovering a man in a theatre / shopping centre / pub toilet would be way more scary than a man on pills in a festival toilet. So maybe that aspect is relevant.

Maybe these guys were reported. Remember a lot of people who self identify as "kind" are still labouring under the false assumption that all transwomen are gay men with no dicks.

PaperClips007 · 10/10/2024 10:14

I just called Butlins and asked for a copy of their policy on single-sex spaces.
I also asked if it was true that 5 men in a dress were removed from a single-sex space, and the security then lost their jobs.
Reception: it was a separate event you need to contact this email.
Me: It was held at Butlins.

Reception: yes but it was an outside event
Me: I said yes, but held at Butlins. Mothers, & Grandmothers will be reading this and I will never consider taking my grandchildren to Butlins.
Me: Can you send me your risk assessment and policy on single-sex spaces?
Reception: I need to speak to my line manager
Me: Wait for 6 mins
Reception: If you give us some details we will get in touch.
Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

If you want to jam up their phone lines and ask the same the number is
0330 100 6648

InvisibleBuffy · 10/10/2024 10:33

I really, really hope that the security staff have not lost their jobs over this. If they have, then I can only hope there's another crowd funder coming.
And five? I thought the narrative is that trans women are supposedly rare and shy occurrences, not a whole gang of male people in the women's toilets kicking off at security when asked to leave.

Fenlandia · 10/10/2024 10:53

Notamum12345577 · 10/10/2024 09:01

Were they cross drawing or trans? There is a difference. Cross dressing is what it says on the tin, they are just dressing in women’s clothes sometimes. If trans they are living full time dressed as a woman/trying to behave as a woman does.

"trying to behave as a woman does" - Could you pop the list of these activities and behaviours onto this thread because I for one would love to know?

Beamur · 10/10/2024 10:59

What actually happened?

Hoppinggreen · 10/10/2024 11:05

Fenlandia · 10/10/2024 10:53

"trying to behave as a woman does" - Could you pop the list of these activities and behaviours onto this thread because I for one would love to know?

yes please, I really need to know if I have been "womaning" wrong

Catgotyourbrain · 10/10/2024 11:09

SorenLorensonsInvisibleFriend · 10/10/2024 07:07

I have blue hair and I'm a TERF. Too early in the morning to be hurt by people on the internet though.

Good on the Butlins security.

Same

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 10/10/2024 11:13

Fenlandia · 10/10/2024 10:53

"trying to behave as a woman does" - Could you pop the list of these activities and behaviours onto this thread because I for one would love to know?

I’m pretty certain any hypothetical list would include:

wearing lipstick
tilting your head to one side when listening
heels
flicking your hair
only talking about shoes and handbags
always having sanpro in your handbag to offer other women in public toilets

Hoppinggreen · 10/10/2024 11:16

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 10/10/2024 11:13

I’m pretty certain any hypothetical list would include:

wearing lipstick
tilting your head to one side when listening
heels
flicking your hair
only talking about shoes and handbags
always having sanpro in your handbag to offer other women in public toilets

Oh shit, I better break the news to DH that hes gay

TinkerTiger · 10/10/2024 11:21

Good on them but you'd never get me in a Butlins. Enjoy your weekend though 😂

Helleofabore · 10/10/2024 11:25

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 10/10/2024 11:13

I’m pretty certain any hypothetical list would include:

wearing lipstick
tilting your head to one side when listening
heels
flicking your hair
only talking about shoes and handbags
always having sanpro in your handbag to offer other women in public toilets

That is me out too. Blimey. Husband is going to be confused.

OuterSpaceCadet · 10/10/2024 11:32

The the most over represented quality I can think of amongst the diverse women I know is that of pathologically putting others' needs first, often but not always coupled with being extraordinarily capable or talented.

I rarely meet men who do this. I never meet extremely capable/ talented men who do this. I'm not even suggesting it is necessarily a good thing to do because too much self effacement comes with a personal health cost eventually. But our society is set up in such a way that men simply aren't required to act like this. The socialisation starts early. Arguably with the hair clips and giant bows endured by baby girls.

The irony is that the transwoman that truly acted like a woman would stay the fuck out of women's spaces because they'd put the needs of women first.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 11:38

I rarely meet men who do this. I never meet extremely capable/ talented men who do this. I'm not even suggesting it is necessarily a good thing to do because too much self effacement comes with a personal health cost eventually. But our society is set up in such a way that men simply aren't required to act like this. The socialisation starts early. Arguably with the hair clips and giant bows endured by baby girls.

Yes, exactly.

Fenlandia · 10/10/2024 12:07

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 10/10/2024 11:13

I’m pretty certain any hypothetical list would include:

wearing lipstick
tilting your head to one side when listening
heels
flicking your hair
only talking about shoes and handbags
always having sanpro in your handbag to offer other women in public toilets

Don't forget the pillow fights. Women of all ages bond with their women friends by pillow fights!

NPET · 10/10/2024 12:14

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 10/10/2024 08:54

Quite ... actually this particular venue is often used for Dance meets so yep, lots of girls and younger siblings wandering in all the time.

But I keep forgetting that the declaration by a male bodied person that they have lady feelz miraculously reduces potential offending risks by like 93% or something ... 😳

Thx. Agree.
But I've been told elsewhere that "BangFace" is a particular dance festival that won't attract under18s, so those of us over 18 would just have to accept it I guess 😐. Still support the security guards!

eatfigs · 10/10/2024 12:18

The silver lining here is knowing that these security guards did the right thing.

The bland-faced corporate response was to be expected but it's very pleasing to hear that on the ground they're not taking any shit from these invasive males.

eatfigs · 10/10/2024 12:20

Women's boundaries being decisively asserted is the best sort of "transphobia". Thank you, anonymous security guards.

Chersfrozenface · 10/10/2024 12:23

eatfigs · 10/10/2024 12:18

The silver lining here is knowing that these security guards did the right thing.

The bland-faced corporate response was to be expected but it's very pleasing to hear that on the ground they're not taking any shit from these invasive males.

The trouble is that the security guards in question are reported to have been sacked.

What will their replacements do, especially if put through a TRA re-education camp? What about during other events and the usual family holiday season?

Cailin66 · 10/10/2024 12:27

Notamum12345577 · 10/10/2024 09:01

Were they cross drawing or trans? There is a difference. Cross dressing is what it says on the tin, they are just dressing in women’s clothes sometimes. If trans they are living full time dressed as a woman/trying to behave as a woman does.

What about Eddie Izzard then? He says he's trans but sometimes he isn't? Does that make him a cross dresser instead?

ArabellaScott · 10/10/2024 12:29

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eatfigs · 10/10/2024 12:32

Chersfrozenface · 10/10/2024 12:23

The trouble is that the security guards in question are reported to have been sacked.

What will their replacements do, especially if put through a TRA re-education camp? What about during other events and the usual family holiday season?

I read on social media they were part of a security firm subcontracted just for the event and not Butlins permanent staff. Hopefully they've got a decent boss who understands the situation.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 10/10/2024 12:43

Fenlandia · 10/10/2024 12:07

Don't forget the pillow fights. Women of all ages bond with their women friends by pillow fights!

Yes, while wearing pink satin à la Grease

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