Butlin's Skegness removes 5 trans women from female toilets

[TERFtown]

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1843952648460140987?s=46&t=p6GESSn09HWHVXYgTLIbJg

(I don't want to call them "trans women", but I don't know what terminology gets me banned here!)

"Security guards removed five cross-dressing men, including this one, from the women's toilets at Bang Face, a dance festival at Butlin's Skegness this weekend. The men responded with a coordinated protest and the security guards have now "been removed""

Anyone up for a TERFy weekend in Butlin's?!?

Except there seems to be a lots of young trans women in their early to mid twenties all looking the same.

Cos obviously women a) all look the same b) all look like that.

It's almost as if it's a fashion statement with added politics strapped onto the back of it.

look very similar to me

If the security guards are sacked, I wonder if they'd have an employment tribunal?

That would be interesting.

How does someone responsible for safety on sight behave if they see 5 blokes, including some with facial hair, entering the toilets?

If they DON'T remove them and something happens their jobs are on the line.
If they DO remove them and a complaint is then made, their jobs are on the line.

They don't actually have much legal protection because these venues don't have an adequate policy over single sex provision / anti sexual offenses because so many of these venues are refusing to define what a woman is.

It leaves staff in a position where they have to make a judgement call without the support of their employer upfront.

What are supposed to do?

If can't assume anyone is a man, so they can't challenge anyone who looks male. That means they can't necessarily do their job.

This is where the 'reasonableness' test should be relevant. Is it reasonable to challenge, and if necessary remove, a group of people who you perceive to be male who are congregated in the female toilet if you are security guard tasked with ensuring safety of all guests and not automatically fear losing your job?

If the answer to this question is 'no', then we have all sorts of further questions.

(English law is generally based on the principle of reasonableness, and whether someone is acting in a reasonable manner when assessing intent, which is why this matters).

I think they were supplied by a private contractor, so Butlin's argument would be with the contractor, not the security guards. The statement from Butlin's seems to suggest that the guards weren't following protocol, so it might simply be to do with the way they handled the situation rather than just being about whether the men were transgender.

The rewriting of history absolutely infuriates me - Mixmag says...
"One day, we hope the rest of the world will catch up with the inclusion that has always been part of the rave scene."
Inclusion has not always been part of the rave scene!
Rave started 35 years ago - before 'inclusion' was even thought of!
Ravers wouldn't have gone along with the sad 1950s stereotypes or bloody conformed to them!

Oh and there were no men dressed up as women in raves or even in gay clubs.

They're so fucking clueless. They constantly sneer about us being middle aged and not "inclusive" then say that raves have always been inclusive. Where do they think all the original ravers are now? We're all fucking middle aged!

Can you imagine the meltdown that’s going in on Butlins PR dept today?

Aside from the glasses, I'm getting strong Fae Johnstone vibes. Mad eyes and nose piercings seems to be de rigueur.

This!

I used to go to a gay club in central London during a v miss-spent youth (they never challenged my fake ID). There were actually transexuals and drag queens / transvestites there but they weren't in the women's loos and they were also quite obviously gay men being gay men.

I emailed them yesterday and got a ‘we are dealing with a large number of enquiries’ reply. I bet they are!!

.

They were third party contractors brought in for the festival, not employees, so "no" is the short answer. They don't have the rights of employees.

I have been to quite a few Bang Face events myself. I didn't go this year but obviously know a lot of people who did go. The version of events I have consistently heard from several different people is that the women in the toilets (and these were predominantly biological females) strongly opposed the actions of the security guards who followed the trans woman into the toilets, and even staged a protest in there.

These guards then called for reinforcements and several women were physically removed from the toilets. There have been allegations of very heavy-handed behaviour towards women (and again these included biological females) but obviously I wasn't there, so this is hearsay. The police are investigating these allegations.

If those allegations are upheld, it's very poor optics for women to be (allegedly) assaulted in the name of "protecting women".

Ah yes, Bang Face has in the past marketed itself as "neo-rave". It's not an 'old skool rave' type of event and a lot of the acts are more d&b, breakcore, hardcore and so on. It started out as a club night some time in the early 2000s. That being said, there are certainly acts that do go right back to the original rave era including 808 State, Altern-8 etc.

So you're right that it's not a carbon copy of the original rave scene.

There have been allegations of very heavy-handed behaviour towards women (and again these included biological females)

"Women"
would only "include biological females" because males are not women.

I fully agree that security shouldn't be heavy handed towards anyone but security staff have always had to physically remove people who aren't cooperative. Don't fight with bouncers, it's unlikely to go well.

I emphasised "biological females" because there is a lot of misinformation going around about all involved being trans. That's simply not true, according to women who were actually there.

Police investigations are under way. It remains to be seen what the outcome of those will be.

When this is all over, because I believe that one day men in women’s clothing will again just be men in women’s clothing, will the companies that bowed down to these bullies realise the unrepairable damage they have inflicted upon themselves? So many companies have just sold themselves out - John Lewis, Body Shop amongst them as well as now Butlins.

Power.

Power. This is what my DH repeatedly says about MtF. I think 'good' men have valid insights on what motivates men who cross boundaries, even young men

It's certainly interesting but what right do these biologically female allies have to decide that the women's toilets are now unisex. Do other (biological) women at the event get no say?

Is there an alternative cheep holiday resort like butlins? Does anyone know? Haven and parkdean etc are ok but I've always preferred butlins for the cheep good package and more to do. Just emailed them asking for clarification on their policy for single sex toilets and made it clear if I can't be sure my dd won't come face to face with a male person in the toilets we will be holidaying elsewhere. Trouble is we go a couple times a year as it's all we can afford and I'd hate to have to follow through with a boycott 😩