Advice needed: DD now identifying as “non-binary.”

[thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn]

Name changed for this, but have been around for donkeys years.

DD is 12, just gone into Y8. She’s diagnosed autistic, and told me about a year ago that she was a lesbian - all fine, no drama, no big “coming out” - she knew no one in our family would be the least bit bothered by that.

However, last week she told me that she thinks she’s non-binary and wants to use they/them pronouns. Telling me seemed to cause her great distress - she cried for hours, even though I took this very calmly and reassured her nothing would ever stop me loving her. I told her that her being non-gender conforming didn’t bother me - and it really doesn’t, I’ve always supported her in how she chooses to present herself. She has very short hair, and dresses, usually, in a boyish fashion. Sometimes mistaken for a boy although to me she’s obviously female just not stereotypically feminine.

I don’t know how to handle this from here. I really don’t give a damn who she loves and how she presents herself, but I believe sex is a biological fact and you can’t “identify” your way out of it - even I can understand why you might want to, as being a (nearly) teenage girl is hell!

I worry that if I support her in this I’ll encourage it, but equally I know if I try too hard to stop it she’ll just entrench herself further - she’s incredibly stubborn and will see this as a battle she has to “win.”

Have so far been hoping I can ride this out and that it’ll just be a phase, but she picked me up yesterday on not using the “correct” pronouns for her. It feels so disingenuous to do so - she’s a girl, she’s MY girl!

I want to encourage her to be herself, because she is wonderful, not have her thinking that just because she’s not a “typical” girl there’s something wrong with her.

Advice much needed and appreciated please.

https://www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/

You might find this useful.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

Thank you. It’s very hard to even know where to start looking for advice online, as acceptance of trans identities seems to be so entrenched in so many of the “support” groups.

Sorry can't be more help but I am sure that more experienced Mumsnetters will be along soon with more advice. Hang on in there

This story is so similar to many, and in part to our family's one. Issues started at 13 and she's now almost 16. I guess, similarly to many other parents, what worries you is the slippery slope to hormones and surgeries. We scrambled quite a lot at the beginning as there was much less advice and information available. The most useful resources I found are Gender wider lens podcast, and You must be some kind of therapist. Transparency has a softer, "lived experience", point of view (but still very much against children transition). In terms of advice on what to do with your daughter, my opinion is: validate the feelings but be ready to set boundaries (e.g. on the name, on wearing a binder...). After considering it for so long, I don't think the issue is whether to set the boundaries on pronouns, on the name, or on other things, but just to set it somewhere, to signal that you won't go along with everything.
The second piece of advice is: take her away from the online world as much as feasible, especially social media and anything with an algorithm (it worries me that she cried a lot when she told you, she must have found somewhere the notion that parents are mean and awful in this respect). Focus on warm, validating real life experiences (for my daughter, we are following a lot the ideas of Jonathan Haidt, Let grow). Check that the school remains neutral (we are lucky from this point of view). Check friendships, you can't control too much, but perhaps find new activities with different friends? Hopefully it will be short lived for you, for us she is stubbornly set on the idea of hormones and surgeries, but there has been so much softening, repair of the relationship, growth in other areas of her life, that (given also the waiting lists of the NHS, she's not on a list yet but she might decide when 18) we are cautiously optimistic she will have time to be more mature and more informed by the time she will take a real decision. I name change often to protect our privacy.

Having been in a similar-ish situation (my daughter asked for puberty blockers to give her time to think about whether she wanted to be a boy or a girl - that was her positioning of it), my suggestion would be to keep everything as non-confrontational as possible without compromising the reality of her sex. A couple of ideas:

1. tell her that you'll make an effort to avoid using any pronouns whatsoever when talking about her, explaining that although you recognise that she does believe everyone has a gender identity, it's not something that you believe (assuming that's a fair representation of your view?). But equally, you recognise that she would be upset to hear you use female pronouns.
2. tell her that you'd like to focus instead on what she's feeling uncomfortable about. Is it breast development? Periods? I told my daughter that we could look at all options to help her with this, as long as those options didn't move her away from the reality that she has a female body - I asked her to slow down and not make any decisions, so sticking with the reality of now was the best place to explore from. I got her some sports bras and she went on the progesterone only pill. It wasn't an immediate fix - we went through several different sports bras until she settled on ones she liked and she was very distressed during the first few/couple of months of the pill owing to breakthrough bleeding. But things settled down.

Re point one: I learned the hard way not to dwell too much on the whole "belief" thing. It's a strange enough concept for adults (and it took me ages to work out that I simply didn't believe that everyone had a gender identity that was separate from their sex), let alone a child. However, it's still important. Also important IMO is the acknowledgement that she is distressed: that she believes she has a non-binary identity and that thinking of herself as female is distressing to her. Unpicking why is key. There's a great gender dysphoria therapy book written by Sue and Marcus Evans (ex-Tavistock, whistleblowers) which is worth a read. It's written for the layman to access - I bought a copy for my daughter's school as well, after reading it myself.

We're further down the line now and although it's far from plain sailing, we're at a point where it has been recognised (via a CAMHS submission in to her school EHCP) that she has body disassociation issues, linked to autism-related puberty distress.

If you're looking for a route in to those types discussions, I would suggest speaking to the school about the Cass Report as a starting point. For it to go in to an EHCP (does your daughter have one?) it would need to go in as a submission from a professional, explaining her needs (e.g. how adults in school talk about gender identity around her) and provisions (e.g. choosing language carefully around pronouns - such as considering avoiding pronouns entirely when referring to her). Talking to your GP in the first instance might help with that.

Also it's worth finding out how the school handles this whole subject. Are they aware of paragraphs 205-209 of the new statutory KCSIE guidance? Are they following the recommendations of the draft Gender Questioning Children guidance, even though it wasn't finalised (it's referenced in the KCSIE guidance and there is no alternative available)?

Good advice above too. I was still typing when that was posted.

When we were in a similar-ish situation a few years ago (but without the autism, so this may or may not be useful), I said something like "well, I'm sure me and Dad will try our hardest to remember. But I'm not telling the dentist!". And I stand by that - I don't see that it's anything to do with the dentist (we were going for lots of dentistry work at the time).
That throwaway line turned out to be really good. It meant there was a way out. It meant that there are a host of friends and family who know nothing about it all and refer to my daughter as she. A few years on, and it's all dwindled a bit.
Thinking of you today, this is tough.

This age is peak for this. Finding a sense of personal identity is important for young teens/pre teens.

My DD was GNC at this age, thought she was gay and I thought was quite vulnerable to the lure of opting out of being a girl.
We also know now that she's autistic.
We talked a lot. About many things but about personal identity and freedom's and how these things go both ways.
In your shoes I would be broadly supportive and if you don't like the pronouns, use their name instead. But I would make it quite clear that while you will try and be respectful to this request she doesn't get to police your language and any snippy corrections will not be tolerated.
I'd also be asking what she's looking at online. I knew my DD was interested in feminism but had started looking at a lot of LGBT stuff too and we talked about how she had to be careful as this is a sexual orientation (in the main) and the content might not be suitable for a curious 12 year old. I wasn't trying to stop her finding information and if she was a lesbian, she would find only love and acceptance at home. I asked her to stop looking at these themes until she was a little bit older.
The algorithms at work on SM.will just keep showing more of the same content and thus the same messages are reinforced.
Make sure she's not on platforms she's too young for and make sure she's still busy in the world and has active hobbies so her body feels useful and has purpose. All kids this age can start to feel self conscious and girls especially do less exercise - especially if it's not a great environment at school for sports. DD took up boxing and enjoyed Guides, both of which were really good for her self esteem and friendships.

This is a trend. Unfortunately it's very common. I know quite a lot of friends children who went down the female to NB route. I know one who is living as a boy so full trans, also autistic, very unhappy.

Most people seem to go with calm acceptance and not pushing it so that it becomes some big drama.

It involves a name change and making everyone else police their language so saying they / them and use a different name. I try and keep up but it's hard to remember when you've known a kid for 12 years as a particular name.

Probably best to keep talking to her and refusing to participate in the nonsense. She can wear her hair short and dress boyish but don't agree to the pronoun change or name change. Ask the school not to indulge this nonsense either. Tell her she can do what she likes when she is 18 but she can't force everyone else to dance to her whim. Probably bad advice but I don't see why everyone else has to feel uncomfortable for her to feel comfortable. May be unsympathetic?

Keep doing what you are doing
Conversations will evolve, just keep them going. Give her a framework
She has 100% acceptance from you.
Between 12 and 25 she's still going to be developing. She is starting to understand things about herself. Some of those things will be consistent, and some of them might change. For example she might have a love of classical music and always have that. The band that is her favourite band at 12 might not be at 18. Her clothes style, sexuality and gender presentation might be the same at 25, or they might change and evolve, and either is ok. That adolescence is a time of experimentation. That your job as a parent is to provide some guardrails to prevent her being unsafe or making choices that you guess might be irreversible or damaging (so no sex until a suitable age of emotional development, no nose piercing until she's old enough to make a mature decision (things are gradual, not all at once, you don't have to be an adult right now). That sex is fixed and gender is belief, that some people believe that gender is mostly sexist stereotypes and dislike pronouns, that some people think gender identity exists separately from sex. That all people have value whatever their beliefs, choices and characteristics, which you respect. That disagreement is ok, with respect. That people will accuse some people of being bigoted and some people of being activists or groomers. We have to stick to our own values and beliefs even when it's hard to stand against the crowd or the accepted truth, we are all trying to do our best, we can try to stick together rather than get divided, we are all responsible for our actions towards others.
Then think about your red lines on social transition, binders, pronouns etc, and be open about them if it feels appropriate. Just like sex or piercings, it's ok to be a parent here in the way that feels right to you.

Some great responses on here that really get to the heart of parenting teenagers. Establishing boundaries that keep them safe while allowing them to grow and develop with a sense of independence.
As suggested upthread, are you aware where this is coming from? Particular friendship group? online? school? It helps to know if there's a particular influence as that can allow some strategic intervention if you're concerned about it.
If it is one of the schools that have unforgivably allowed activist teachers to sell the "born in the wrong body" nonsense to children, then parents elsewhere have started tackling schools with some success. Post Cass the implications of schools pushing this despite their lack of qualifications in "sex change for children" are serious.
One of the thing this whole ideology does is deskill us - undermining parental authority (they're all bigots) and deskill professionals who know that in every other instance, affirming a child's confusion / mental illness / vulnerability as "true" is not appropriate and often dangerous. We're all frightened of saying or doing the wrong thing.
Somehow we need to regain our confidence in establishing boundaries that keep children safe and minimise the harm that this ideology can do to growing children.

I assume she has a phone and laptop? Who is she talking to on those devices?

One of the thing this whole ideology does is deskill us - undermining parental authority (they're all bigots) and deskill professionals who know that in every other instance, affirming a child's confusion / mental illness / vulnerability as "true" is not appropriate and often dangerous.

This is a great way to put it. As well as de-skilling, it also disempowers. So any parents or professionals who do manage to navigate a path to retain and/or acquire skills to support children find themselves hit with the disempowerment.

Whilst I feel a huge sympathy for the professionals caught in this situation (I genuinely do), they have a "easy" get out when they have figured out the impact of gender identity belief - they can step aside and say that they don't feel qualified to engage. I appreciate they will/may feel guilty about this but parents don't get that option.

Parents can't step aside. They are watching the whole thing unfold in front of them and are already in the early stages of grief if they can't figure out how to break through and find a path to help their child, watching with increasing disempowerment as their child goes along the affirmation pathway.
There are different ways to "fight back" but unfortunately doing so directly with your child isn't a guarantee that this will keep your child safe. Your child is possibly being actively encouraged by others online to see you as the enemy in this if you express concern.

Obviously that doesn't mean parents should give up hope - I certainly haven't. But it's a massive game of whack-a-mole identifying and mitigating influences. It's not as simple as "stop their internet access", especially if, like many autistic children, socialising online can be the easiest way to navigate friendships. At the age of 12, my children have only been allowed to be online friends with people they knew IRL and the chat function was disabled on everything. As they get older, this obviously has to loosen up a little - but I have been working hard on helping my children to engage critical thinking and understand the dangers of online gro0ming in general (I don't make it specific to this). Our parental boundaries on the internet have only loosened with a combination of age and clear signs that they understand enough about the risks out there. Obviously we get told that we're mean... other friends don't get their phones turned off overnight (we still have this one in place) etc etc - mostly from our 13-year-old, not our autistic 15-year-old.

She has a chrome book for school - issued by them and locked up so tight she can’t really access anything other than school stuff on it. I check her phone regularly - she’s knows I do this. No social media other than Pinterest.

She doesn’t chat much to anyone either online or IRL, she’s deeply introverted and her autism makes communication very difficult for her.

She didn’t really have friends in primary school - not bullied, and no one was unkind to her, they just didn’t “get” her. She’s made a few in secondary. They seem like nice kids, quirky and a bit geeky like her. But very much the type to “be kind” and embrace the rainbow without any kind of critical thinking. Tbf they’re only 12/13!

She does a few after school clubs, all academic or creative ones - she’s not in the least bit sporty and never has been. She quite likes being out in nature though. I try to make sure I bring her along on long dog walks with me at weekends - to get her offline and out in the fresh air. It’s also the time when she’s most likely to open up to me about whatever is on her mind.

My autistic DD told me she was non-binary a little bit older than yours. She told me last week that she's not any more and happy to identify as female . She's 20 now so it can change

This is what I’m hoping for, that she’s just figuring stuff out.

I might be a dickhead but if one of my DCs started with all this I’d say “I’m so glad we’re on the same page, I’ve been thinking I’d like you to start calling me dad. I don’t feel like a mum, I’d rather not be involved in all this mumming business, so from now on you can refer to me as ‘he’ and I’ll refer to you as ‘they’ and we’ll both be ok with that won’t we” and see if the fucking penny drops. It’s attention seeking bullshit and indulging it doesn’t help anyone.

😂
Despite everything that I've said upthread, I suspect there's more than a grain of truth in this. 😂

Somehow I suspect the only truly of trying that approach with my DD would be to drive a wedge between us. The only positive I can take from this is that she at least talking to me, as much as she ever talks to anyone.

That's so important isn't it? And that you know when she's likely to open up to you.
Parenting is bloody scary - trying to hold them safe while letting them go.

My dd went through this at a similar age, got a girlfriend and declared herself non binary. She thought it was hilarious that lots of internet content had told her that we (as parents) wouldn’t accept her being gay. Obviously we did, while also trying to not give her a label she would find it difficult to step back from.

I found NB a bit different. I was very clear that she had a female sex and there was no getting away from that. We spent ages bra shopping to get stuff she really felt comfortable in. She also went on the pill because her periods were horrendous (can’t think why she fancied identifying out of it all 🙄). However, I told her that I wouldn’t be recognising any gender identity until she could explain exactly what she meant and why it was important.

Given I’m fairly non-gender-conforming myself, and firmly believe that preferences, characteristics, access to sports, careers etc should not be dictated by sex, it was a big ask! Luckily, logic and common sense prevailed when she realised (some weeks later) that she couldn’t explain or justify ‘being non binary’. She now recognises the huge assumptions that gender identities impose on everybody else. She’s not above ‘being kind’, but at 16 she generally regards it all with a huge side eye. Good luck OP, I hope you have a similar outcome

This is great insight.

Especially this bit:

However, I told her that I wouldn’t be recognising any gender identity until she could explain exactly what she meant and why it was important.

Obviously first and foremost it's about keeping communication open and making sure it's really clear that you as a parent aren't seen as the enemy.

In my experience it's about navigating between listening without judgement and guiding to enable critical thinking.

Another thing to consider, sorry to put the frighteners on you .. it's just from this comment alone
Telling me seemed to cause her great distress - she cried for hours,

Because she's fallen into the ideology, within that there is a belief that "evil terfs are out there who hate you and want you to die..." which is very upsetting as a recently avowed trans person. Obviously these evil terfs exists only in mythology. Real women who understand reality on the other hand.... Well worth a listen sometime! Sounds like you're one of those women.

It's possible she's deeply upset because since she wants to get creative around concepts of gender (like, didn't we all as a teenager 🙄) she really believes it's a big BIG thing that we should all take very seriously or risk possible annihilation ..... ....