Advice needed: DD now identifying as “non-binary.”

[thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn]

Name changed for this, but have been around for donkeys years.

DD is 12, just gone into Y8. She’s diagnosed autistic, and told me about a year ago that she was a lesbian - all fine, no drama, no big “coming out” - she knew no one in our family would be the least bit bothered by that.

However, last week she told me that she thinks she’s non-binary and wants to use they/them pronouns. Telling me seemed to cause her great distress - she cried for hours, even though I took this very calmly and reassured her nothing would ever stop me loving her. I told her that her being non-gender conforming didn’t bother me - and it really doesn’t, I’ve always supported her in how she chooses to present herself. She has very short hair, and dresses, usually, in a boyish fashion. Sometimes mistaken for a boy although to me she’s obviously female just not stereotypically feminine.

I don’t know how to handle this from here. I really don’t give a damn who she loves and how she presents herself, but I believe sex is a biological fact and you can’t “identify” your way out of it - even I can understand why you might want to, as being a (nearly) teenage girl is hell!

I worry that if I support her in this I’ll encourage it, but equally I know if I try too hard to stop it she’ll just entrench herself further - she’s incredibly stubborn and will see this as a battle she has to “win.”

Have so far been hoping I can ride this out and that it’ll just be a phase, but she picked me up yesterday on not using the “correct” pronouns for her. It feels so disingenuous to do so - she’s a girl, she’s MY girl!

I want to encourage her to be herself, because she is wonderful, not have her thinking that just because she’s not a “typical” girl there’s something wrong with her.

Advice much needed and appreciated please.

@BonfireLady

It’s only been the past few months that I’ve looked into this and spoken to the school.

DD did speak about changing her pronoun, and said she doesn’t like being referred to as she/her. The school said they would support/have other children at the school where they accommodate this preference.

My personal thoughts - as a parent, is ‘not yet’. This is where I’ve drawn my boundary line for now. However, I do think there should be the choice. I think it’s right that the school would accommodate this. I don’t think this is leading on to breast binding, removal.

Reading the NHS advice, I think it sounds reasonable. In society, I think there should be that level of choice/options. It seems at the right level to help rather than cause harm.

I think we both feel secure with the boundary of : we are focussing on schoolwork, we don’t need to align with stereotypes, we can wear whatever clothes we want, we are proud of who you are.

When she becomes an adult, she has the maturity to make her own choices.

Blimey, this thread has moved on a lot since I last checked it.

Squidss, if you think I’m starting from a point of not believing in gender identities - you’re right, I don’t. I don’t believe in gender at all, I think it’s a load of stereotypes made up by the patriarchy to keep us all in the boxes the patriarchy finds beneficial.

I believe there are two sexes, plus a small number of intersex people, and that everyone should be able to behave and present themselves however they want, so long as they’re not harming anyone. I don’t believe there’s a “right” or “wrong” way to be male or female.

So I’ve allowed DD to chose her own clothes since she was old enough to express an opinion, so long as they’re appropriate for the event and the weather (when I say appropriate for the event I don’t mean I’d force her into a dress for a wedding, say, but I would insist whatever she wore was clean and reasonably smart). When she wanted her long hair cut very short, I helped her find pictures of styles she likes, found a good hair dresser, donated the hair to the Little Princess Trust and told her she looked great - which she does. But I don’t think her clothes or hairstyle make her any less female - nor do her pronouns.

DD knows all of this, as I explained it all to her when we first started discussing trans issues. She also knows that I don’t think I have to share someone’s beliefs in order to respect them - for example, as an agnostic I don’t need to believe in God to show respect to religious people.

What I do agree with you on is that what most parents want above all is their children to be happy and healthy. At 12, I think what DD needs most in order to be both of those is time and space to figure all this out for herself, and the knowledge that, no matter what, her dad and I will always love her and have her back. Because we will.

I'm sorry you're going through this, @thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn.

I don't have children of that age so perhaps my suggestions won't be that useful, but here goes.

If she were my daughter I would probably focus on the importance of not making any decisions that are difficult to undo later. So I would say something like this:

"You're only 12 and it's going to take you many years to figure out who you truly want to be. And that's part of what being young is about. You get to experiment, try different identities on for size, and see what feels most comfortable to you. What concerns me about young people identifying as trans or non binary is that some of them are making decisions about their identities and their bodies which are difficult or in some cases impossible to reverse. Now perhaps you identify as non binary because you don't like some of the trappings associated with being a girl but you know you're not a boy either, and that is understandable. But some girls start off identifying as non binary and then go on to identifying as boys. Sometimes they decide they want puberty blockers, binders, and eventually cross sex hormones and surgeries. It's important for you to understand that you only get one puberty: yours. So even if you do all of these things, you will always be female. But you may grow into an adult who can no longer get pregnant, have children or breastfeed due to choices you made about your body when you were too young to know whether you might want to do these things later. That's why I wouldn't support you making any changes to your body which could interfere with your normal sexual development. Now if you feel uncomfortable with your developing body, that's normal! I would say almost everyone feels some degree of dysphoria during puberty. We used to acknowledge that this was normal, but now we act as though it's a problem to be treated. When it comes to your identity, I accept that identities can be fluid, and as long as you aren't trying to make changes to your body, where's the harm in being non binary? You know I am against stereotypes, we've talked about this a lot, and you know what I believe about that. But I would encourage you to think hard about what happens if you change your name and pronouns and then later change your mind? If you change your name to something gender neutral at school and use they/them pronouns, is it going to be difficult for you if in two or three years' time you want to go back to your current name and being called she/her? Because this is something you can take the time to mull over. You don't need to do anything right now. And I think the fact that you aren't ready to tell your grandmother yet suggests that you might need some more time to think about it."

@thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn I just wanted to send some solidarity your way with worrying about how your poor mum, with early dementia, can cope with this pronoun business. And I think you're absolutely right to take the onus off yourself.

Some of the reason I went with "I'll try, but I'm not telling the dentist" is that I have a nephew with learning difficulties. He is 12, but functioning at about the level of a five year-old. He is a treasure; he is fun, an absolute delight to be around. He could charm the birds out of the sky! But he has a toddler-type tantrum when his biscuit unexpectedly breaks. Or the pasta has green bits in. Or the beans are touching the fish fingers. Or when the wrong colour bus goes past. He finds it exceedingly difficult to understand that boys can have long hair, and needs to ask my son about his long hair approximately once an hour. He could not cope with saying "they/them" for my daughter: it is too much for him to process.

Unsurprisingly, my daughter (five years on from the they/them announcement) has not tried to explain to my nephew (and hence, all that side of the family). Neither am I about to offer to explain: shapeshifting language is not fair on my dear nephew, for whom the world will always be a mystery. It is not kind.

My experience of dementia is somewhat limited, but I imagine there are parallels to be drawn. All best wishes OP. 💐

Thank you, @ExtraordinaryMachine1 , solidarity much appreciated.

it is an extraordinarily difficult time, tbh. Mum’s diagnosis knocked us both for six - there’s only ever been me and her, so we’re extremely close, plus it means I have absolutely no one to share her care with, other than DH who has his own aging parents to consider. Mum is only in her 60s, and has always been an amazingly strong, brave and intelligent woman. To watch her already starting to diminish is horrifying. I’ve no idea how I’m going to tell the kids, it will break their hearts. They adore her and she them. And I don’t know what I’m going to do without her.

Oh, you poor poor thing. Your poor brain trying to cope with all of that!
I expect this non-binary business is just about the last thing you need. I do hope it all blows over for you, as (I think, I hope) it is blowing over for my family. Sending virtual hugs.

I'm so sorry @thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn. Good family relationships are wonderful and so important where we can manage them. I'm always saddened to see comments as seen upthread, that failing to remember pronouns / new names by the mother that birthed you should result in distance or alienation.
I mention it as the relationship you have with your daughter sounds great and what you're doing to reinforce that we can have different beliefs and even disagree about things yet still love and cherish each other is critical. Sadly there's a trend to persuade young people that if parents /carers / loved ones don't capitulate / obey instructions about language / pronouns etc they're bigots and bad people.
We must help our children to reject this simplistic thinking which is precisely what you're doing.

I'm 28. I think I was definitely "born this way" but my life experiences have allowed me the space to explore it, for which I'm grateful. There are plenty of people who might be happier and more fulfilled if they could embrace their non-binary gender feelings who aren't aware of the possibility, or are in a country/environment where it wouldn't be welcome. Similar to how historically many gay and lesbian people had to have "straight" marriages or didn't even know being gay was an option.

It's definitely helpful hearing your perspective and it's good to hear that you feel happy with your choice to have hormones. I think I saw you mention hormones in a previous comment - please ignore if I misunderstood.

This is a very personal question - so I fully understand if you would prefer not to answer:

Do you feel fully informed of the risks associated with putting testosterone in to a female body? This article covers some of the medical complications that are common:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/26/trans-problems-urinary-bowel-incontinent-young-detransition/

One of the biggest concerns (IMO) is the increased cardiac risk. It's something that is often talked about regarding men who take synthetic testosterone (the increase in steroid use associated with gyms) but for some reason, the 4x risk increase for females (who are male- or non-binary identifying) doesn't seem to translate across in the same way in the public conversation.

I guess my question is also around understanding how the benefits might outweigh these significant risks. I really struggle to get my head around the idea that they could.

I appreciate your concern but I think it's rude to give strangers online unsolicited medical advice. I'm working with several highly qualified medical professionals, know many people who have undergone hormonal treatment, and it feels deeply important and necessary for me. I have a friend who's a trans woman who's been taking estrogen who said the medical tests feel superfluous because they could tell her that the hormones would kill her and she wouldn't stop taking them, that's how vital it is for my community.

Goodness. Did you really find BonfireLady's gentle, kind, polite comment 'rude'?

I'm genuinely surprised by that. (But maybe it goes some way to explain how this whole caboodle has reached its current extent, if every attempt to suggest caution is rejected rather than considered.)

Quite! Bonfire lady is one of the gentlest posters here, the response says a lot is all I can say

if an adult women wants to put testosterone in their body & tip themselves into early menopause, vaginal atrophy and all that goes with that that’s on them but children cannot be allowed to do that

@Squidss
You have posted on a thread about a 12 year old confused about her biological sex so - as an adult promoting non binary as a positive choice - I think it's reasonable to expect some questions. Especially as you appear to be promoting drugs and surgery as a positive choice?

Women and parents on here (and some of us lesbians) do probe into all this as we have children to protect so are curious about why some people find chemically and physically altering their body so important?

You do you, Squidss, and don't worry about trying to convince the posters on here to give up their compassion for the medicalisation of children. At 28 you don't need any compassion, obviously, given your snippy retorts, but if it's ok with you, the rest of us will carry on caring about the damage being done to girls and young women by this insidious and frankly bonkers ideology.

Go well, I wish you good health for as long as possible.

I mean, I think my comment was possibly a lot ruder. I want to shake people quite often and suggest they go get some real problems. But I'm menopausal and fucking furious mildly tetchy quite a bit of the time. (One of the reasons I'd recommend not mucking up your hormones decades before they do it themselves, honestly.)

I'm mostly more tactful with alllll the mid-20s non-binary/transmen in our real-life circles.

I’m wondering if you would feel able to address this Squidss?

I have a friend who's a trans woman who's been taking estrogen who said the medical tests feel superfluous because they could tell her that the hormones would kill her and she wouldn't stop taking them, that's how vital it is for my community.

You could say that for a whole range of interventions and choices people make.

I'm going to leave this discussion because I don't feel like it's going anywhere productive. I know I can't change your minds or convince you that my gender is "real" and that is not my goal.

I just want people (especially parents) who come across this thread to know that trans and non-binary people are not just a teenage fad. We exist across all ages, professions, and continents. We are doctors, lawyers, journalists, and scientists. It's possible that your child is one of us, and that is something to celebrate. And even if your child's gender exploration is just a phase, that is also positive! Experimenting with your gender is a way to understand yourself better and deepen your relationships with the people around you.

I know you all care deeply for your children and I wish you all the best.

@Squidss If "experimenting with your gender" means hormones and surgery then it's not harmless, is it? And does it really deepen your relationships with the people around you if it reduces your dating pool, impedes your sexual function and makes you infertile? I'd have thought the opposite. (And indeed, this is something many trans people and detransitioners complain about.)

If it just means changing your pronouns and adopting a more androgynous look, then I can't see how it's different to identifying with any other subculture, e.g. being a goth.

I just want people (especially parents) who come across this thread to know that trans and non-binary people are not just a teenage fad. We exist across all ages, professions, and continents. We are doctors, lawyers, journalists, and scientists.

But weirdly never conservatives. Why might that be do you think? The idea that anybody before about 2015 believed they were neither male nor female is just plain crackers. Anyone who is older than about 20 knows that this is a modern phenomenon.

I’ll take that as a no then. Oh well, always worth asking for an explanation - still waiting!

Sorry I haven’t read all the thread (apologies if already mentioned) but there is a new organisation

https://www.evidencebasedautism.com/

which may be worth a look.

I have a friend who's a trans woman who's been taking estrogen who said the medical tests feel superfluous because they could tell her that the hormones would kill her and she wouldn't stop taking them

I have a friend who's an alcoholic who would say something very similar, sadly.

Given that this thread is about a mother who is worried about her 12 year old daughter, I'm not sure how helpful it is to talk about trans people who say they would take hormones even if they knew it would kill them. If I were the OP and I read this comment it would make me doubly determined to do absolutely everything I could to turn my daughter away from this path. Because I would want her to be alive, happy and healthy, not miserable and willing to literally kill herself in pursuit of an impossible goal.

It always happens on all of these types of threads.
thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn posted about her problem.

An NB or transperson shows up and the thread becomes all about them. It's a bit rude to focus on, keep asking questions to, and pandering to a person who has nothing to do with the OP is it not.

It's no wonder teens all over the planet are adopting trans identities when it always makes them the centre of attention.