Advice needed: DD now identifying as “non-binary.”

[thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn]

Name changed for this, but have been around for donkeys years.

DD is 12, just gone into Y8. She’s diagnosed autistic, and told me about a year ago that she was a lesbian - all fine, no drama, no big “coming out” - she knew no one in our family would be the least bit bothered by that.

However, last week she told me that she thinks she’s non-binary and wants to use they/them pronouns. Telling me seemed to cause her great distress - she cried for hours, even though I took this very calmly and reassured her nothing would ever stop me loving her. I told her that her being non-gender conforming didn’t bother me - and it really doesn’t, I’ve always supported her in how she chooses to present herself. She has very short hair, and dresses, usually, in a boyish fashion. Sometimes mistaken for a boy although to me she’s obviously female just not stereotypically feminine.

I don’t know how to handle this from here. I really don’t give a damn who she loves and how she presents herself, but I believe sex is a biological fact and you can’t “identify” your way out of it - even I can understand why you might want to, as being a (nearly) teenage girl is hell!

I worry that if I support her in this I’ll encourage it, but equally I know if I try too hard to stop it she’ll just entrench herself further - she’s incredibly stubborn and will see this as a battle she has to “win.”

Have so far been hoping I can ride this out and that it’ll just be a phase, but she picked me up yesterday on not using the “correct” pronouns for her. It feels so disingenuous to do so - she’s a girl, she’s MY girl!

I want to encourage her to be herself, because she is wonderful, not have her thinking that just because she’s not a “typical” girl there’s something wrong with her.

Advice much needed and appreciated please.

Hi @Squidss - thank you for sharing your considered perspective. Can I ask what you understand non-binary to mean? What is it about being male or female which makes you feel you are neither? This is a genuine question, I really want to understand this.

Squidss surely your recognition that everyone has a unique gender identity shows clearly that ‘gender identity’ is actually just another word for personality?

I feel quite strongly that nobody should be expected to be a certain way, or do certain things based on their sex. I guess that’s the situation you’d want for yourself? Nobody has a set of characteristics and preferences which align exactly with either masculine or feminine stereotypes, so surely everyone is non-binary? Or do you see it as meaning something different?

She's more prone to it because of ASD. You need to look at and stop what she's looking at online to curb this. And don't allow any snippy comments from her. Facts are facts, and she needs to be reminded of this.

@Runor makes the best point:

"However, I told her that I wouldn’t be recognising any gender identity until she could explain exactly what she meant and why it was important."

Ask her exactly this. Because she won't be able to answer this with reason, so it will kill it dead.

No of course not! Just your sex, of which your genitals are a part, but so are your muscles, your circulatory system, your skeleton, your skin, your lungs, your heart, your body hair, everything physical about you. You will have some body parts or not, depending on your sex. Your gender identity doesn't change that in any way, shape or form.

Squids do you see any issues that concern you in how the OP is handling this - any comments to offer? You're aware that her daughter is 12 years old and autistic? That being female or male is significant in lots of stages of life, one of them being puberty?

From my perspective I can't see anything to be concerned about in how the OP is dealing with this - she's clearly a loving mother with a great perspective on her daughter's needs.

"Cultures around the world have accepted third/other genders for thousands of years. "

Please give an example.

Since Squidss refers to being seen as a woman and to being a lesbian at age 14, I assume the latter.

My concern is that she's starting from a place of believing that her child isn't "really" non-binary, and trying to stop the desire to identify that way. Maybe this is a phase that will end, which is fine, but you shouldn't start the discussion assuming that is true. If a child had a different concern, like a health issue or getting bullied, it wouldn't be right to start from a place of assuming that they're making it up. I just wanted to offer the perspective that non-binary identities are a real possibility for people of any age. I wish I had known it was an option at 12, as it may have saved me decades of confusion. There's nothing inherently "adult" about queer identities, unless you insist on sexualizing all queer people, which is on you.

Indigenous cultures in North America have celebrated "Two-Spirit" gender identities for thousands of years. To Native Hawaiians and Tahitians, māhū is an intermediate state between man and woman. In South Asia, the hijras represent a third gender who have their own legal status. In Polynesia they have the fa'afafine. There's lots of information about this online. The concept that the only possible genders are male and female is a white colonial idea that had to be enforced by force as christianity spread across the globe. There's nothing natural or innate about current gender identities.

But your inner sense of self still doesn't change the fact that that there are only two types of "Non-binary" people. Male or female.

"Two Spirit" 😂 oh goodness.
Native Americans literally need to beg not to be drawn into western gender ideology rubbish.

All the other examples - the Hijra, the Kathoey, the rest of them.
These are all male people who dress up as women to provide a socially acceptable way for men to be homosexually active in deeply homophobic societies.
The "Ladyboys of Bangkok" don't exist to validate western notions of gender.

@MelodyMalone Thank you for your genuine curiosity and desire to understand! I can't speak for the whole non-binary community, but for me being non-binary is an integral part of my larger queer identity and expression. I can't exactly explain it but being assumed to be a woman (which most of the world sees me as) feels like a deep disconnect with what I know to be true. I imagine that it's a similar feeling to if someone got your gender or pronouns wrong, if someone called you a man in the grocery line etc. I'm currently exploring medical options to change my appearance to reduce the occurrence of people assuming I am a woman. I would like to appear more androgenous, to align with how I feel. Being non-binary and discovering the language to describe my feelings was a huge weight off my chest and a joyful time in my life. My parents still don't exactly understand which is okay! But they've seen how using the right language and pronouns makes me feel seen and supported and that's all they want. I am happy and successful and that's all any parent wants for their child.

Gender identity and gender expression are different! It's very confusing. Gender expression is more aligned with personality, in my opinion. A man could have a feminine gender expression and enjoy painting his nails or wearing dresses, but he could still be a binary man and be strong in that identity. Your gender identity is very personal and no one else can ever truly understand it, which is why telling someone that it's wrong or not real can be so hurtful. If the world insisted that you were a different gender than you knew yourself to be, I imagine that would be hurtful to you as well. All genders can absolutely do and present however they'd like, but that doesn't determine their identity.

@Squidss I don't hold a belief that everyone has a gender identity but I appreciate that you do. Thank you for adding your perspective to the thread.

I'm not going to directly challenge your belief but nor do I accept it as true (if it helps to know, I feel exactly the same about my lack of belief in god and my acceptance that others do believe).

I have a few questions:

1. do you think that a child who identifes as a "gender" (male, female, non-binary or other) that differs from their sex (male or female), and experiences distress, deserves access to the care recommended in the Cass Report? If not, why not?
2. do you think that it's possible for autistic children to confuse their understanding about their changing body (and any distress or sensory issues that this may bring) with the idea that they might have a gender identity that differs from their sex?
3. would you accept someone saying to you that they won't use any pronouns at all e.g. they would just use your name. This would be to avoid anyone using the "wrong" pronouns - obviously what is "wrong" for someone who believes in gender identity will be "right" for someone who doesn't (and vice versa). So it would be impossible to get consensus on which pronouns were right or wrong. Does removing pronouns altogether help reduce tension between believers and non-believers in your opinion?

Gender identity is real to some people but not real to other people

A man could have a feminine gender expression and enjoy painting his nails or wearing dresses, but he could still be a binary man and be strong in that identity.

A man who embraces things that are stereotypically female is still a man? Agreed.

Spot on.
Just like god, Allah, ghosts, reincarnation and many more things.

To be honest, I don’t understand the concept of gender except in the (I guess) old-fashioned, academic meaning of something that’s imposed externally in response to someone’s sex. I don’t see myself as having a gender in the way you describe. Obviously I have a sex, and that dictates my physical reality, but I don’t think that affects my preferences and characteristics. I’d love someone to explain what it does mean though - if you have the time and energy to try?

Alongside that, I would ask you to think and research very carefully before having surgery. I had minor surgery earlier in the year. I’m surprised by how long it has taken to get over it. I hear other people say that their surgical scars still hurt 20 years later. I assume you are considering a double mastectomy. This is major surgery and it will have negative impacts on your body for the rest of your life. Of course you need to balance that against the benefits you feel it will bring you - just don’t believe anyone who says it is easy ❤️

I mean, yes, if you get all of your information off TikTok.

In South Asia, the hijras represent a third gender who have their own legal status.

Hijras do not have an enviable social status - they're not just trans people settling in to ordinary work and jobs among their peers. They are exclusively AMAB people (and male people with an intersex condition), there are no female hijras, it would not be allowed. And they are expected to dance, sing, and in many cases undergo castration. This is not an edifying progressive position, it's a human rights abuse targeted at camp gay men.

In Polynesia they have the fa'afafine. There's lots of information about this online.

There is. Again, it's an exclusively male community, and an exclusively feminine presenting male community which is attracted to other males. You do have to wonder what would be wrong with just identifying as a gay man - well, homosexuality is still punishable by 7 years imprisonment for men who identify as gay, but tolerated if you are identified as fa'afafine. How very modern.

The concept that the only possible genders are male and female is a white colonial idea that had to be enforced by force as christianity spread across the globe.

Oh, come ON. There are black people and Muslim people who have had babies and were not baffled as to where they came from. Everyone knows what sex is. The concept that there are genders at all is a pretty colonialist idea rooted in the notion of an ambitious bread-winning man having his brow mopped by his subservient nurturing wife.

There's nothing natural or innate about current gender identities.

On that, at least, we agree.

I don't want to speak to the Cass report, I have a lot of issues with that document and consider it fear-mongering and not trans-informed care. I don't trust any advice about the medicalization of gender that doesn't consult the trans community and listen to their experiences. I think like any medical care, gender affirming interventions should be undertaken carefully and with as much information as possible. Hormonal and surgical treatments shouldn't be rushed into, but that's not what is happening for children or anyone. I spent more than 5 years considering whether I want hormones and surgery, and once I decided to pursue hormones it's taken more than a year to make that happen as an adult in my 20s. Gender affirming care has a lower regret rate than tattoos or knee replacement surgeries (vastly lower, like 2% versus 20%) and no one is concerned about banning tattoos or knee replacements.

I think it's possible for anyone to get their identity confused with the aspects of their gender that they don't like, and this is especially possible for those with extra sensory issues. I think this is a conversation to be had between parent and child, to parce out exactly what their goals and desires are with their identity. It's also true that there is a higher rate of queerness and trans identity among the autistic community, because an element of autism is a questioning and rejection of social norms including gender norms. That doesn't mean their identity isn't real or true.

I think using a name instead of pronouns can be a good place to start, it's better than using a hurtful pronoun. My mother went through a phase like that. But I'll tell you that it was hurtful, and didn't disguise for me the fact that she was rejecting me and my identity. It pushed us farther apart and created rifts that we're still working through years later. Refusing to use your child's pronouns is the same as refusing to acknowledge a queer relationship, or dismissing something they care about. It says "I don't see you, I don't understand you, you can't trust me".

She’s got the idea from somewhere. If the phone has internet access I would worry that she’s been reading message boards and things even if there are no social media apps installed. Not sure what you are checking but she could be clearing her internet search history very easily.

Honestly I think you need to take away internet access. If it’s an iPhone you can put parental controls on it and remove the internet explorer app. I don’t know about other types of smart phone.

Or you could remove the smart phone altogether and give her a dumb phone instead. You might not connect this to the trans issue when you tell her. You could say you had read a book by Jonathan Haidt about how bad smartphones are for children.

Find out what’s going on at school. Have other children been coming out as trans, have teachers been teaching about gender identity?

As she likes being out in nature I would really try to get her time taken up with that, camping, hiking, climbing, horse riding etc, or caring for animals in some way, either with you or any kind of group to get the focus back on using her body for purposeful activities rather than a problem to obsess over. Do you have any pets? Could she get a dog to walk and look after ?

I know one parent who wrote a blog about it went for a breezy ignoring of the trans thing. Not getting into any big discussions or wrangles about it. I wouldn’t affirm or change any names or pronouns as that is a social transition and has an effect.

kind of “oh yes I remember you told me that” but then on to the next thing “anyway, where shall we go for a hike this weekend?”

I don't trust any advice about the medicalization of gender that doesn't consult the trans community and listen to their experiences

Dr Cass did consult & listen to the trans community. She just disagreed with them that it was ok to prescribe puberty blockers to children & teenagers who were not suffering from precocious puberty

Squidds, I recognise your sincerity in what you say and believe, but I'm afraid it barely makes sense to me. Man and woman are the words that refer to adult members of the male and female sex respectively. Sex is by definition binary, dimorphic and immutable because it is based on whether our bodies developed to produce small gametes (sperm) or large gametes (eggs) for the purpose of human reproduction.

Gender on the other hand is a social construct of stereotypes of behaviour and presentation - masculine / feminine - and varies between cultures and through history. Unlike sex I see it as something external - the often restrictive and damaging expectations placed on individuals by society because of their sex.

I can honestly say I don't have a gender identity. I am a woman not because I feel like one (whatever that is supposed to mean) but because I was conceived female and survived to adulthood. My life and personality have been shaped by that fact and I have spent that life trying hard not to let myself be limited by the restrictions inherent in the very idea of gender. My motto is "We are sexed bodies. Everything else is personality."

Oh man, Squidds, it's like someone has asked ChatGPT to summarise the gospel of Tumblr. Good for you if your beliefs provide you with something, but we have very much heard this all before. More typically from teenagers than from someone your age.