Advice needed: DD now identifying as “non-binary.”

[thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn]

Name changed for this, but have been around for donkeys years.

DD is 12, just gone into Y8. She’s diagnosed autistic, and told me about a year ago that she was a lesbian - all fine, no drama, no big “coming out” - she knew no one in our family would be the least bit bothered by that.

However, last week she told me that she thinks she’s non-binary and wants to use they/them pronouns. Telling me seemed to cause her great distress - she cried for hours, even though I took this very calmly and reassured her nothing would ever stop me loving her. I told her that her being non-gender conforming didn’t bother me - and it really doesn’t, I’ve always supported her in how she chooses to present herself. She has very short hair, and dresses, usually, in a boyish fashion. Sometimes mistaken for a boy although to me she’s obviously female just not stereotypically feminine.

I don’t know how to handle this from here. I really don’t give a damn who she loves and how she presents herself, but I believe sex is a biological fact and you can’t “identify” your way out of it - even I can understand why you might want to, as being a (nearly) teenage girl is hell!

I worry that if I support her in this I’ll encourage it, but equally I know if I try too hard to stop it she’ll just entrench herself further - she’s incredibly stubborn and will see this as a battle she has to “win.”

Have so far been hoping I can ride this out and that it’ll just be a phase, but she picked me up yesterday on not using the “correct” pronouns for her. It feels so disingenuous to do so - she’s a girl, she’s MY girl!

I want to encourage her to be herself, because she is wonderful, not have her thinking that just because she’s not a “typical” girl there’s something wrong with her.

Advice much needed and appreciated please.

In my experience it's about navigating between listening without judgement and guiding to enable critical thinking
I'd agree with this.
There's a nasty and prevailing message that your parents will hate you/not understand you/must obey the rules or they're 'phobes which is very damaging to young people to be so alienated from the people who in the main actually are the ones who love you, know you and want the best for you. I know this isn't true for everyone - but the vast majority of parents are kind, loving and accepting of their children.
You need to be able to talk to your kids about these things.

Yes, that’s definitely true. You can’t just dismiss these ideas, asking your teen to explain what it means to them, how they feel etc, is really important. You do need to give them enough time and attention (and gentle querying) for them to think to the end of the arguments and realise for themselves how they are tying themselves in knots…

Do you know what her school's sex and relationships curriculum is? If she's not online, it may have come from there.

That's a good question. So many SRE / PSHE resources start from the position that children can be born in the wrong body and sex change is desirable, men can give birth, men can be women and that sex isn't binary.
Children are surrounded by this nonsense in some schools.

However, I told her that I wouldn’t be recognising any gender identity until she could explain exactly what she meant and why it was important.

Mmm. When the first of my son's friends announced themselves to be nonbinary, I asked DS 'So what does that mean in practical terms?'

All he could come up with was the pronouns, but earnestly assured me that 'they' were 'very understanding if people got it wrong at first'. DS quite often calls this male friend 'he' without even noticing, but jumps down our throats on the kid's behalf if we do the same.

Yesterday during the pronouns conversation she asked me to tell her grandma (my mum) for her. They’re very close but mum is even more terfy than I am.

What had me lying awake fretting in the early hours today is that my mum isn’t very well - early stages of dementia. DC don’t know this yet. DM is very anxious and stressed already - I don’t want to tell her this.

So in the car coming home from school, I explained to DD that I didn’t want to tell DGM, as it might worry her, and would be much better received coming direct from DD once she feels able to confidently explain it herself.

I am hoping this will a) kick the conversation about telling the wider family a way down the road, and b) force DD to actually give some serious thought to how she’s feeling and why.

She accepted this quite happily, so I suspect isn’t really ready to have people know after all.

I agree that it’s weird she was so upset when she told you. Someone has been putting the fear of God into her that you are unlikely to accept her if she takes on this special identity. This is grooming behaviour and designed to drive a wedge between a child and a non compliant parent. Are there any LGBT groups at school?

It sounds like you are dealing with the situation well though.

That's a really wise approach. There seems to be an issue with this whole ideology where children try to berate / bully parents out of legitimate opinions. I can't decide whether this has always been the case (thinks of teenage me being critical of my parents). But it does seem as if children have been given tools to criticise parents with: "affirm my identity, use these incoherent pronouns, change reality on demand" etc with the mantra that adults are bigots unless they comply and abandon their parental role.
I'm not explaining this well - but this does seem a part of undermining parental / adult authority that's essential for a safe functioning society.

She knows I’m gender critical, we’ve discussed it a few times - or as she put it, “you have issues with trans people”, which infuriated me as it made me sound like a petulant child, rather than someone with a considered opinion they’ve arrived at over time.

So I suppose it’s possible she assumed I’d be angry.

Maybe. I’m trying to think of a comparable scenario where telling a parent something would cause such upset in the person doing the telling.

Out of interest if she’d told you without the all the upset do you think you would have responded differently?

No. And quite honestly I think her distress was a factor of her autism as much as anything. It’s not unusual for her to get overwhelmed by her own emotions, and either go into meltdown or shutdown.

Sorry, bit of an essay upcoming. I've been lucky with DD because we have good communication. She enjoys discussions and debates.

We had a similar situation at the same age. She 'came out' as non binary with a lot of worry about how I would react. I told her I loved her whatever she is but said that she was very young to be deciding this now and there's no rush to decide. She also wanted me to tell her grandparents but I said let's wait a bit, what's the rush. I said get things clearer in your mind before we start telling other people but please do keep chatting with me about it, I really want to know what you are going through.

On further gentle questioning on another occasion it came out that her friends suggested that since she wasn't interested in boys or makeup she must be non-binary. I pointed out that whilst she is not interested in these things now, she may be interested in these things later or she may never be but that has nothing to do with gender. Then she said she thought she might be bisexual. I said cool, nothing wrong with that, a lot of people have some degree of this.

She is young in her school year and likely autistic. She hit puberty early and the timing of Covid lockdowns weren't great for her socially. She's really into gaming, her close friends at the time weren't.

I pointed out that I very rarely wear make up and basically live in jeans. I told her to wear whatever she likes, have any hobbies, have crushes on whoever, no need to label it.

Gently over the next few years we've had various conversations. I told her that my generation grew up trying to break gender stereotypes and her generation seem to be doing the opposite by having very rigid extreme definitions of femininity and masculinity. It's probably our generation's fault really with all the blue for boys and pink for girls etc. She never liked dolls, but loved dressing up as Elsa. Her younger brother loved dolls and twirling around in a pink dress as a young boy but not at all now as a teenager. She grew up seeing us letting him crack on and enjoy it. I told her that according to me and a lot of my generation, gender isn't binary and the term 'non-binary' doesn't mean anything.

She developed a great interest in gender and spent hours and hours researching. We had discussions. I asked her if I was a trans man because I wear trousers? Is daddy a trans lady because he cooks? Are there girl jobs and boy jobs? Is it 'kind' to replace women in sport with trans men? She always likes to see all sides, I persuaded her to read JK Rowling's essay. This was a turning point...I also got her to read Invisible Women to provoke outrage at how women are treated differently to men and to say the solution is not to become a fake man but to continue to fight for women's rights.

Anyway to cut a long story short, she is now 16. She is still 'kind' but has recently told me that although she used to think she was non-binary, she doesn't think this now and is a girl who likes gaming and wearing comfy tracksuit bottoms.

That's a lovely reassuring story @MysticCatLady.

I do feel strongly that we're doing children a disservice by introducing adult concepts about sexuality to them. Asexuality, trans, non binary and the host of other "identities" and they have no reference point for it all. No wonder they pick something that seems perhaps "safe" (even though it may not be). They're having to confront adult aspects of sexuality while still children - with adults (including in some schools) relentlessly pushing it at them. 😥

I am in the exact same situation as you, with a 'non binary' 12 year old. Im also gender critical and I wonder if this has anything to do with it? Do you think she picked this knowing it might alarm you? Like some kind of small act of rebellion? I'm starting to think that this might be the case for my dd. I get policed constantly about pronouns etc even though I do try to not use them at all around her. Dh carries on as usual, calling her 'she/his daughter' etc and never gets pulled up on it.

Any attempt at discussion about why she feels like this devolves into an argument because she really can't explain it and gets very defensive. It's a nightmare tbh but I'm trying my best to be neutral and hope it passes. Sorry I don't have any practical advice, but I know how much it sucks to feel like this ideology has taken over your child's identity 😔

She was also adamantly a lesbian for a good while which obviously is fine but now is 'probably' bisexual. Shes also been 'demi sexual' and a 'demi girl' before settling on non binary. I just say, you're 12, live your life and see what happens. They seem so keen to stick labels on themselves these days!

Yes exactly!!!

You're a 12 year old autistic child in year 8 at school and your teachers are trying to explain sexuality to you at a time where you've not really had any feelings for anyone. You're autistic and so if you like your girl friends that must mean that you're a lesbian. Plus boys are annoying. Black and white thinking.

They are trying to explain non binary to you, it's someone who doesn't feel like a boy or a girl. You're autistic, you've always felt like you're different and struggle to understand others. You don't seem to be like the other girls, your interests are different. But you also don't feel similar to the boys. You must be non binary.

It's all nonsense. Too much too young for our autistic children.

Too much too young for ALL our children

I think you've dealt with this perfectly so far, and I think you were right to hand the task about telling GM back to her, that landed very well, and took a 'got to let everyone know' pressure off her. She doesn't, only when she's ready. The people on here saying 'I'd just tell them how it is', I don't think are in this position. You need to keep her talking to you, and on side, as you and everyone else who's actually in this position knows. Just continue to enjoy your relationship, I think you know her very well. Don't get too bogged down in what to say and what not to say, it will all evolve as she grows up and even any 'headlocks' will be more quickly forgotten by her than you, stay calm and focused, you are quick thinking which is useful.

Thank you so much, that is really reassuring to read. I worry so much about my ability to help her navigate through the tricky years ahead - she and I are very different.

I'm not here to start a fight, just to share my perspective. I am a 28 year old non-binary trans person. I've identified as a lesbian since I was 14 and as trans/non-binary since I was 23 (I didn't know it was possible before then). I see a lot of misconceptions about non-binary people and I do my best to address them. I am a law student, I have a long-term relationship, I have excellent grades and am involved in my community. I am not looking for attention, I'm quite private about my gender. Many people in my life see me as a woman and refer to me as she/her and that's not the end of the world. The people who truly love and support me use they/them pronouns which brings us closer together. When someone (including my parents) use the wrong pronouns for me and don't take my gender identity seriously, it hurts our relationship and drives us farther apart. It makes me less likely to trust and confide in them. It makes me feel deeply misunderstood. I've known there was something different about me since I was a child, and having the space and support to explore my gender identity would have saved me 15 years of confusion and dissociation from my body.

Non-binary identities are real and serious. Cultures around the world have accepted third/other genders for thousands of years. There are non-binary adults in every country and profession. I know non-binary lawyers, teachers, social workers and auto mechanics. Yes, some young people experiment with their gender who aren't "really" trans, the same way they experiment with fashion and relationships. This is a good thing! If they're not trans, they'll find their way back. But they'll always remember how you reacted to their efforts to discover themselves. Don't assume that your child is on the fast-track to "scary" medical interventions, that is incredibly rare. But also don't assume that this isn't real. Your child may be in the middle of a life-changing discovery that will last the rest of their lives, and they want you along with them.

To consider oneself non binary you have to believe there is a binary female or male identity that all women or all men share respectively. From my point of view that is just bonkers 🤷‍♀️

Yes but Squidss are you male non-binary or female non-binary?

I think there are as many gender identities as there are people on earth, everyone's relationship with their gender is unique. The vast majority do fall within "male" or "female", or they have been conditioned to feel that way. I think everyone should take the time to parse out their own relationship with their gender and make conscious choices about how they want to identify and present. It leads to a deeper understanding of yourself and others.

Are you asking about my genitals? I think that's highly personal and inappropriate

I think you are confusing gender identity with personality