Advice needed: DD now identifying as “non-binary.”

[thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn]

Name changed for this, but have been around for donkeys years.

DD is 12, just gone into Y8. She’s diagnosed autistic, and told me about a year ago that she was a lesbian - all fine, no drama, no big “coming out” - she knew no one in our family would be the least bit bothered by that.

However, last week she told me that she thinks she’s non-binary and wants to use they/them pronouns. Telling me seemed to cause her great distress - she cried for hours, even though I took this very calmly and reassured her nothing would ever stop me loving her. I told her that her being non-gender conforming didn’t bother me - and it really doesn’t, I’ve always supported her in how she chooses to present herself. She has very short hair, and dresses, usually, in a boyish fashion. Sometimes mistaken for a boy although to me she’s obviously female just not stereotypically feminine.

I don’t know how to handle this from here. I really don’t give a damn who she loves and how she presents herself, but I believe sex is a biological fact and you can’t “identify” your way out of it - even I can understand why you might want to, as being a (nearly) teenage girl is hell!

I worry that if I support her in this I’ll encourage it, but equally I know if I try too hard to stop it she’ll just entrench herself further - she’s incredibly stubborn and will see this as a battle she has to “win.”

Have so far been hoping I can ride this out and that it’ll just be a phase, but she picked me up yesterday on not using the “correct” pronouns for her. It feels so disingenuous to do so - she’s a girl, she’s MY girl!

I want to encourage her to be herself, because she is wonderful, not have her thinking that just because she’s not a “typical” girl there’s something wrong with her.

Advice much needed and appreciated please.

I'm glad for your sake that your sex and gender align so easily! That is a privilege and not true for everyone. My mother had a rough time with my "rejecting" the idea of being a woman because she had fought so hard to be taken seriously as a woman, and have the freedom to do things men were allowed to do. It took a lot of discussion for her to start to see that I'm not belittling her history and hard work, just expanding on it into a new future. I've talked to people in their 60s who are starting to explore their own non-binary identities and find joy in it. Every generation finds ways to be closer to our true selves and that's beautiful, not something that should divide us. All the best to you.

While we're here, shall we talk about some other "different gender presentations" that we can exoticise because they're from other countries?

How about the burrnesha of Albania. In that society women were not able to inherit, and so if a family had no boys, they could nominate a girl to be raised as a boy so she could inherit. She then had to never have sex, never have a relationship, and may have been committed to this by her family at a very early age.

How about the bacha bazi in Afghanistan. Are we going to pretend that this means same sex relationships in Afghanistan are accepted because there is this tiny segment of human rights abuse that involves same sex activity?

These are not "gender presentations." These are ways in which highly sexist, highly homophobic societies permit exploitative situations to persist, and the hijra and fa'afafine are among them. Anyone who is shutting their eyes to the sexism and homophobia because they imagine these are "gender presentations" needs to think about what would happen to the hijra or fa'afafine or burrnesha if they said actually, we don't accept that we exist outside society, we want to be accepted as gay or lesbian.

There is no equivalence between a knee replacement surgery and making extreme cosmetic modifications to a body that is physically healthy.

knee replacement surgery is only ever for people with significant health issues and the regret is for a multitude of reasons. And tattoos are purely a skin decoration. There is nothing remotely equivalent between a tattoo and having a double mastectomy for purely cosmetic purposes.

I think that a great deal of misinformation is being spread here with that type of comparison.

My oldest (16) identifies as NB and has done for nearly 3 years now. It's honestly not a massive deal to them and most of their peers in many ways, they're all pretty casual about it. Maybe they'll change how they feel about it in a few years, maybe they won't. One friend identified as NB age 12-13 and then stopped.

I have a couple of friends who are non binary as well. I definitely think some people are, but maybe not as many young people who are feeling that way now. We are supportive, but I have explained that I feel that if one wishes to fight fixed ideas of gender I think it's a stronger statement to hold to one sex and show how you don't have to be like this or that. Even if I were inclined to try to talk them out of it (which I'm not), no person, and especially no teen, was ever won over by smug 'gotcha' statements, which it can be easy to fall into if you want to roll your eyes at being NB.

Whatever one feels the best thing is not to make it a wedge between you, so they keep talking to you and feel they can be honest with you. And it'll be a phase or it won't be regardless of what you say or do at the end of the day.

No advice just sorry that you’re having to think about all this OP and that your DD has been so worried by it. I hope it’s possible to get to the root of what is bothering her the most and that this is something that you can tackle together which will be reassuring for her.
You clearly have a good strong relationship and good communication. You focusing on preserving that seems like the most protective thing you can do for her at the moment.

I think you misunderstand Squidss - and to be fair, it seems to be something many people who believe in gender identity do misunderstand- NotAtMyAge isn’t saying her sex and gender identity align, she’s saying she doesn’t have a gender identity.

My mother had a rough time with my "rejecting" the idea of being a woman

Being a woman is not an idea, it's a biological reality.

And Diggby makes an important point about the 'other cultures have a third gender' argument. Some cultures do - but they are always deeply sexist and usually homophobic. It's a safety valve for societies with rigid sex divisions where it is 'impossible' to step out of gendered expectations. It's not something to emulate.

And can I add: some of us think no-one has a gender identity; there just is no such thing.

You think you do have a gender identity? I think you're mistaken. Like the boy who once told me, "I'm cool, me!" (he wasn't). Or the guy works down the chipshop, swears he's Elvis (he isn't). Mistaken.

People do make mistakes, even about themselves.

Who's right? Do gender identities exist? How could we tell? A hint: consider other similar questions. Do guardian angels exist? What about paranormal auras? Do they exist? UFO's? Ghosts? ... Hmm? How do we tell?

Fascinating, and are clearly well thought out (!) as your views on the subject are, I’d suggest the engagement from posters such as @Squidss and @Echobelly are a heck of a lot more helpful and relevant to the OP’s actual question than your assertion of your GC views.

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions. As I don't share your belief that everyone has a gender identity, much of it doesn't resonate with me at all but it's still good to listen to another person's viewpoint. I just wanted to pull out a few things for comment:

I don't trust any advice about the medicalization of gender that doesn't consult the trans community and listen to their experiences.

Dr Cass spoke to lots of people with trans identities during the course of her 4 year review. If you've not heard it before, it's worth listening to her talking about this with the Scottish parliament when she was asked questions about it. She clearly has a belief in gender identity herself and her compassion for other believers who experience distress really comes across in the conversation:

Gender affirming care has a lower regret rate than tattoos or knee replacement surgeries (vastly lower, like 2% versus 20%

Nobody knows the regret rate of people who have had surgery or hormones to align their bodies with their perceived gender identity. Gender clinics don't track this. The nearest we've got to a longitudinal study is a 30 year Swedish study which found that over this time period, suicide rates for people with a trans identity were slightly higher than the average population. But that doesn't specifically cover regret rates.

I think using a name instead of pronouns can be a good place to start, it's better than using a hurtful pronoun. My mother went through a phase like that. But I'll tell you that it was hurtful, and didn't disguise for me the fact that she was rejecting me and my identity

Thank you for what comes across as a very honest answer and I'm sorry to hear that it feels hurtful if someone close to you does it. Speaking back with honesty in return, I am not going to pretend to believe something that I don't - so I would avoid pronouns altogether in a similar way as your mum did/does. From my perspective, it's not about rejecting anyone's identity, it's about me not being forced to pretend that I believe in something.

I can absolutely recognise that it's distressing to hold a belief that your gender identity doesn't match your body, but I also recognise that many beliefs that I don't hold feel very real to other people. Hopefully the people who I know who have a trans identity haven't picked up any "vibes" that I don't share their belief - I avoid pronouns completely. If I was asked directly whether I believe their trans identity is real, I now feel ready to answer honestly that I don't. However, I would hope that they don't feel the need to ask this question, if hearing my honest answer would be hurtful. I don't like the idea of causing hurt but I am not going to hide the fact that I have lots of concerns about the large number of children and young people who are on an affirmation pathway, where they might go on to remove body parts or take hormones which have an irreversible effect on their body, given their belief in gender identity may change.

If someone doesn't have a gender identity, how are they qualified to tell people what to do about theirs? It reminds me of men without uteruses telling women about their reproductive rights. If you don't get it, move on and let the folks affected do what they need to do.

Yep, I’d be so happy to do that if it really wasn’t affecting anyone else. But, if you go back to the opening post, it really is affecting other people. Speaking frankly, I imagine parents and other people who love people going through this are deeply affected by the prospect of them using drugs or having serious surgeries - anyone would be.

I’m really grateful for your engagement here, and others, but nobody has yet managed to explain what being NB actually means beyond pronouns. If it’s an expression that society’s treatment and expectations of people based on sex should be far more broad-minded and equal, then I wholeheartedly support that. But I don’t just support it for people who declare themselves NB. That understanding and fairness should be extended to everyone. Don’t you agree?

That's not how safeguarding or healthcare work.

Conflating the safeguarding and healthcare needs of children and vulnerable young adults with abortion rights is unhelpful. The only similarity is that both women who want abortions and anyone who feels that they have a gender identity (that differs from their sex) deserve access to good healthcare without judgement.

It doesn't matter whether someone who is concerned about safeguarding, or people having access to evidence-based healthcare, believes in the concept of gender identity or not. This isn't about upholding or directly challenging someone's belief, it's about recognising where a child's (or vulnerable young adult's) belief may lead them to harm.

In the case of "gender affirming care", that harm could be the significant cardiac risk associated with giving testosterone to females who identify as men (or as non-binary), to name but one example.

If you don't get it, move on and let the folks affected do what they need to do.

Like this? https://www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

@thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn

My DD is 13. Interest in Pride, wanting hair cut short and dressing ‘like a boy’ started just before her first period. She’s recently asked about changing her pronoun. I met with the school - who said they’d be very supportive.
My take on it has been : to tell her I love her and am very proud of her.
In a discussion with the school : I said I don’t like the idea of ‘labels’. They sent me a link with different terms used to describe sexuality, and - to me - she still seems too young to categorise herself. Even a label
of boy/girl seems to lead to stereotypes : and is that necessary? It is all just human nature.
I think her present focus should be on her schoolwork, and getting through school. She is quiet, sensitive and easily hurt by comments : so I don’t want her to be a target for people who have different views.

I know people will say I’m wrong, but I feel I have set a boundary. Any drastic changes - very short hair, wanting a different pronoun can be decided when she is older and completely sure. I have been quite firm, and she actually seems more settled with that boundary,

And ... if no-one has a gender identity, how are those who mistakenly think they do qualified to tell people what to do about gender? It reminds me of religious people telling women about their (and their foetus') immortal souls.

We ought not to allow those who believe in immortal souls legislate or advise on the basis of their mistaken (or even, possibly, just disputed) belief. And we don't. That's a lesson well learned - over centuries, in fact - with clear relevance for this new religion of gender and identity.

Even a label
of boy/girl seems to lead to stereotypes : and is that necessary?

Sadly, it does - and no it isn't necessary. However, is it better to challenge these stereotypes or identify out of the ones that were "assigned at birth"**, by changing your body to "align" with the stereotypes you prefer?

**Unfortunately, when a child is born there are stereotypical expectations and limitations placed on them from that very moment. It starts with the arrival of gifts (e.g. dresses and dolls for girls) and continues on in school (e.g. girls doing netball and boys doing football). Also unfortunately, trans rights activists refer to "sex" as being assigned at birth, rather than the more accurate "sex-based stereotypes" being assigned. Sex isn't assigned, it's simply a biological fact. The "label" of girl and boy are simply labels of biological fact - they should have no bearing on any expectations or limitations, except where biology comes in to play e.g. girls will get periods when they hit puberty (and may find this distressing)

e.g. girls doing netball and boys doing football

In the UK. In the USA boys play netball (OK, basketball) and girls play football (soccer). Which shows what nonsense it all is.

@BonfireLady

That’s interesting. But I think there should be a freedom of choice.

If you choose to feel comfortable within the stereotype that’s just as ‘ok’ as rejecting it.

I think what is good is that society is moving towards : the rejection of the stereotype = deemed as acceptable as following it.

However : I think, as with so many things : if it’s taken to the extreme that causes harm to yourself/or others, then things need to be challenged and questioned.

Doesn’t challenging stereotypes by identifying as a gender identity then create stereotypes?

And if someone is solidifying their queer identity by then declaring a gender identity, that is also feeding stereotypes and it is just pinning more labels on yourself (a general ‘you’) and it is also then creating a cruel expectation that bodies need to be changed to fit an identity.

There is a significant difference between just being generally non conforming to any stereotypes and enjoying life and using a label to fit into a group of people.

If someone has a need to label themselves with an identity rather than simply acknowledging their body type, how has this become acceptable to be medicalised? What other identities should be medicalised?

That's pretty much my entire point.

That’s interesting. But I think there should be a freedom of choice.
Choice is only true choice where the chooser is fully informed on the consequences of their decision. What we're seeing unfolding (albeit slowly at the moment) is a medical scandal of epic proportions, where there has been very little informed consent at all e.g. did children taking puberty blockers for much longer than their prescribed purpose understand that there was no evidence to show the long term impact on brain development? Did they understand that it's physically impossible to go through the "puberty of the opposite sex", so if they go on to take cross-sex hormones alongside puberty blockers this actually means that they have had no puberty. Instead, what they have is an adult-sized body and a mimicry of some opposite-sex secondary sexual characteristics. A good example would be boys who take oestrogen don't get a wider pelvis (they just get the fat distribution around the hips), or girls who take testosterone don't get bigger voice boxes (they just get longer vocal chords in the same sized space, leading to the distinctive "croak" sound of "FtM" transitioners).

If you choose to feel comfortable within the stereotype that’s just as ‘ok’ as rejecting it.
Agreed. Most people probably have a mix of accepting some sex-based stereotypes and pushing back on others. I certainly fit that "category". I don't identify as non-binary though: I don't identify as anything at all.

I think what is good is that society is moving towards : the rejection of the stereotype = deemed as acceptable as following it.
Society was moving towards rejecting stereotypes. Now there has been a societal pivot towards changing your own body to match your preferred set of stereotypes.

However : I think, as with so many things : if it’s taken to the extreme that causes harm to yourself/or others, then things need to be challenged and questioned.
Exactly. The Cass Report has set the standard for this, recognising that "social transition is not a neutral act". If a child is supported to reject the reality of their body (e.g. non-binary pronouns), there is an increased likelihood that the entirety of their feelings of discomfort with themselves will be viewed through the lens of the affirmation pathway: "you've changed your pronouns but still don't feel right, how about binding your breasts to see if that helps?".... "Binding your breasts didn't help and you're getting a sore back from the pressure on your spine? As it's been a couple of years now, do you think you might be ready to remove your breasts?"... and so on.

It's an upsetting thought, frankly, that some are so unhappy with the gulf between their self image and bodily reality that they try to modify the reality.

Squidss, why on earth would you contemplate surgery to become 'more non-binary'? Surely that shows it's not in any way like being L, G or B.

Hi Squidss, thanks for replying and I'm glad you are happy and successful and comfortable in your identity. Can I ask how old you are?

Do you think feeling non-binary for you is something innate ("born that way") or something that develops as a result of life experiences? Hard to be sure, I suppose.

If someone has a need to label themselves with an identity rather than simply acknowledging their body type, how has this become acceptable to be medicalised?

Exactly, there's a blind spot here that gender believers generally can't explain.

It's interesting to me as to how people understand this. When I first heard the concept of "non-binary", several years ago (can't recall exactly when or how), I was intrigued by it. It seemed like a rejection of gender stereotypes, which I'm always all for. (I don't feel like a "typical woman" - but I'm guessing most people don't).

I thought about it a bit more and it started to seem more about rejecting it personally rather than socially, if that makes sense - that NB people identify out of female or male, so they're kind of accepting the continuation of stereotypes by saying they're something else. I'm not expressing myself very well! For me I'm happy to be a part of representing that there are many ways to be a woman and challenge the stereotypes that exist.

But I think Squidss will say it's not about that and it's more of an innate feeling that to live authentically they have to be neither female nor male but non-binary.

In terms of children/teens though, I think it's important to accept that they will likely try on various identities/ways of being, because that's natural and what they've always done. Nowadays this is often around sexuality/gender identity. Some will stick but a lot won't.