Advice needed: DD now identifying as “non-binary.”

[thewitchesyouwerenotabletoburn]

Name changed for this, but have been around for donkeys years.

DD is 12, just gone into Y8. She’s diagnosed autistic, and told me about a year ago that she was a lesbian - all fine, no drama, no big “coming out” - she knew no one in our family would be the least bit bothered by that.

However, last week she told me that she thinks she’s non-binary and wants to use they/them pronouns. Telling me seemed to cause her great distress - she cried for hours, even though I took this very calmly and reassured her nothing would ever stop me loving her. I told her that her being non-gender conforming didn’t bother me - and it really doesn’t, I’ve always supported her in how she chooses to present herself. She has very short hair, and dresses, usually, in a boyish fashion. Sometimes mistaken for a boy although to me she’s obviously female just not stereotypically feminine.

I don’t know how to handle this from here. I really don’t give a damn who she loves and how she presents herself, but I believe sex is a biological fact and you can’t “identify” your way out of it - even I can understand why you might want to, as being a (nearly) teenage girl is hell!

I worry that if I support her in this I’ll encourage it, but equally I know if I try too hard to stop it she’ll just entrench herself further - she’s incredibly stubborn and will see this as a battle she has to “win.”

Have so far been hoping I can ride this out and that it’ll just be a phase, but she picked me up yesterday on not using the “correct” pronouns for her. It feels so disingenuous to do so - she’s a girl, she’s MY girl!

I want to encourage her to be herself, because she is wonderful, not have her thinking that just because she’s not a “typical” girl there’s something wrong with her.

Advice much needed and appreciated please.

What do the (seemingly very few) male non binary people do to show their identity? Stick on a bit of lippy and get a manicure maybe? Meanwhile females are removing healthy body parts and taking dangerous hormones to remove any trace of 'femininity', creating a whole host of problems in the process. Its all so depressing and something that I'm very keen that my daughter doesn't pursue. These things have serious medical consequences, humans aren't Lego people able to chop and change body parts.

Ignore as much as poss and don’t do anything to reinforce that the declaration equates to more drama, attention or anything else.

@Circumferences YY

With respect, I think a NB person, who can empathise with the OP’s child, is just as relevant to the OP’s post as GC posters who may or may not have any experience dealing with a NB family member, but sure as heck do have a lot of opinions to share.

And all I can see from @Squidss posts is someone trying to help people to understand a different perspective (and one directly relevant to the OP). Not at all someone trying to make themselves the centre of attention.

We have given birth, and as a consequence suffered of incontinence, or prolapse, first hand, or know someone dear who has experienced that. We have grandmas or aunts or mothers who had to have a mastectomy, and seen their painful recovery. Some of us remember the athletes from East Germany and the medical scandal from the steroid doping. We have lived enough to know how much physical health is fragile, and how important it is for psychological wellbeing. We are biased by reality, we struggle to believe that these procedures can be life affirming. We don't trust these doctors who hide possible side effects, and don't help the patients to weight the risks against the questionable benefits.

I think it was fair for Squidss to share their experience and perspective, and to then answer questions which people (including me) asked. I still don't really understand what "non-binary" means in reality, but I appreciate Squidss' attempt to explain from a personal perspective, though the mention of medical procedures makes me uncomfortable.

I will assume that the relevance of the different procedures you’ve listed etc is that you’re likening them to medical intervention that some, but not all, trans people go through.

But I don’t see how that is relevant to the OP’s posts in this instance.

Nonetheless, the point of my post was to highlight that the PP being criticised was not ‘trying to make this all about them’ as @Circumferences asserted at all. They were trying to offer genuine assistance, and answering questions that were put to them.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, it wasn't directed to you, I hadn't even read your post before posting mine. It was addressing the issues raised by the PP who was advocating hormones (and also surgery if I remember correctly) to affirm a NB identity, and I was trying to explain why a declaration of trans identity makes a lot of us worry, even when it's not immediately linked to a request/desire of medical procedures. It makes some of us parents much more cautious in going along with pronouns and change of name, because there's no separation between the normal and even healthy exploration of a forming identity, and a number of procedures which are heavily pushed as the solution to all sorts of problems without a meaningful discussion of the side effects.

It seems to me that the problem with all this identity stuff is the constant need to seek external validation from everyone else. None of us are fully understood even by our nearest and dearest we truly walk the path of life alone. And that’s ok. We don’t require others to agree to our politics religion/ non religion or anything else we hold dear that make up our identity. Except for the non binary/ trans group who demand that we use pronouns we don’t believe in or agree with. In no other field would this be tolerated. It is authoritarian in the extreme.

I thought there was quite a lot of help and support for OP, and I really hope she feels able to ask if she has more questions.

I also think it’s interesting to have contributions from those who believe her daughter may have a non-binary identity, explaining first hand what that means and how it feels. Their position is that this is real and should be celebrated

Unfortunately, nobody ever does properly explain what having a non binary identity actually means, and I think that is a very relevant point for both OP and other readers. When anybody indicates that something is too difficult to explain, what they are generally saying is that they don’t understand it well enough to be able to explain.

I think that is quite important when deciding how best to address your child declaring a non-binary (or any gender) identity. Especially so when you can recognise that their discomfort may well stem from a range of other factors - from puberty to autism to social isolation.

PP described her own pathway which could well involve drugs and surgery, and a total dismissal of Cass’s thorough investigations in this area. I think, this gives a very clear idea of what she feels is acceptable, and perhaps puts her own advice to OP into very clear context

Indeed. I noticed the comment from a pp earlier about parents using the wrong pronouns and not taking gender seriously " it hurts our relationship and drives us farther apart. It makes me less likely to trust and confide in them. It makes me feel deeply misunderstood".

Is it healthy to be so dependent on validation from others of an identity that is so hard to articulate? We see countless women on here talking about managing the fury of their children over this issue and that's absolutely appropriate for teenagers - the hormonal soup of adolescence etc. But it's concerning if this is the message children are getting from their older peers - that only full compliance is acceptable. Especially in the light of all the evidence from Cass about the harm this is doing to children.

" it hurts our relationship and drives us farther apart. It makes me less likely to trust and confide in them. It makes me feel deeply misunderstood".

When I saw the post relating to this, I saw the coerciveness of this belief.

I think that a huge proportion of people feel that they ‘don’t fit it’ while growing up. Not even with their own family. This is not unusual at all. However, to retcon your life because you believe you had a ‘gender identity’ and that caused this very normal part of growing up and, by the way, thereby fitting into a group where this very action is central to the group’s being (the destabilising of established societal mores is central to queer theory), revolves around controlling others.

It is control and coercion because unless that person (a general observation) is validated, under the guise of being ‘understood, and ‘loved unconditionally’, that person will withdraw from the relationship. And this adds to the sense of persecution.

I found the flippancy around surgical regret was very concerning. This is a group of people who have been sold these lies. My friends who have had double mastectomies live with constant pain. The rehabilitation is significant.

The use of testosterone is a major life shortening decision. And yet, what did we see? We saw a female person dismiss this using the experience of a male person.

Male people taking estrogen have very little of the long term health issues that female people taking testosterone have. The two experiences are in no way comparative. But the male perspective is often the one we see repeated here on FWR. And when we try to raise the issues of the brutality on the female body, we are dismissed. We saw this with Bonfire’s post being rejected the way it was.

I think we saw a fairly typical interaction on this thread, sadly. I didn’t see any new ideas to consider.

This ⬆️ With bells on.

I don't believe anyone in this situation** intends to be coercive and controlling. But that is the net effect.

I was aware that my question would be difficult to receive - hence acknowledging that it may be too personal and writing it as carefully as I could.

But as PPs said above, was it rude? Thank you to everyone who called this out.

If I put myself in the shoes of an adult who has made the decision to medicalise their body in line with their deep belief (and to relieve their distress), I feel a mix of "I'm glad they are happy and hope they remain so" and "I am angry that the medical profession isn't providing for informed consent (and no, I don't accept your belief being pushed on to me as fact)".

Am I angry with each individual for their role in this co-ercion? Yes and no. Whilst I respect that they hold a belief that I don't (the belief that they have a gender identity), I land on the thought that they are both victims and perpetrators. If any adult NB- or trans- (identifying) person sees me saying this, I can imagine a visceral response: "how dare you say I don't have agency over my own body?", [if they are one of the many people with autism in this situation], "you're being ableist", "you're being informed by your bigotry/ignorance" etc etc. All I can offer in return is that my feelings come from a good place, whether or not they believe me saying so.

If I put myself in the position of a parent (which I am) I am incredibly angry that children are being co-erced in to believing that their parents aren't on their side, wish them dead, are a danger to them etc.

No. Any parent that shows compassion by researching what's going on in the medical profession, meets their child (including an adult child) "half way" e.g. by not using any pronouns (and/or using a "gender neutral" nickname) or spends time really listening to "both sides" of this awful mess is not a danger to their child. Quite the opposite.

**to be clear, I am talking about a situation involving adolescents or young adults that does not link to the "other Blanchard type". Unfortunately there is a very wobbly line here when it comes to adolescent boys who have been pulled in to this mess if they are opposite sex attracted. I have written about this on other threads.

"When someone (including my parents) use the wrong pronouns for me and don't take my gender identity seriously, it hurts our relationship and drives us farther apart."
This seemed, to me, to be insensitive and self-centred in the extreme. The poor OP has clearly said that her mum has early stages of dementia. Is Squids seriously suggesting that someone with dementia should be expected to suddenly refer to her grand-daughter as "they/them"? I don't know too much about dementia but isn't it completely obvious that suddenly changing how we refer to a child or grandchild is a massive cognitive ask under the circumstances? It's not difficult to imagine that even switching to a straightforward nickname might be a bridge too far.
Towards the end of her life, I remember that my grandma was unable to tell apart me and my sister-in-law. Naturally, we just smiled and went along with it; she was very very old (nearly made it to 100!) and it was natural that her cognitive abilities were waning. Of course it didn't hurt our relationship with my grandma, that would be bizarre and ridiculous.

I shared my story about my nephew in the hope that the non-binary visitor might see that not everyone has the cognitive skills required to wrap their head around shape-shifting language.

You only have to look at the public court cases to see how difficult it is to use counterintuitive pronouns. The judges and barristers keep tripping up and even the witnesses for the TRA side can’t get it right. And these people (presumably) are not suffering with cognitive impairment.

Does she have any lesbian role models? Has she ever met a butch lesbian in real life?

Something I've noticed a few detransitioners say is they were same sex attracted but didn't have any lesbian role models.

If my daughter was going through this phase I might invite a couple of my lesbian friends to family events etc my daughter was at, or might invite them for dinner, just to make sure DD had actually met lesbian women who are comfortable in their skin - I'd let my friends know what I was up, to check they were comfortable with the idea, but not DD.

I'd try to think of other ways she might see lesbian role models. I guess it might be worth talking to the school about maybe?

Am late to this conversation and my position, with an auDHD child who identified as trans at 12 (within months of her first period) means that I am necessarily biased on this. When it began, we assumed it was just a phase, like her previous ones liking Thomas the Tank engine or dinosaurs in infant and junior school, and humoured her. When she asked to have her name changed officially we did it thinking, it’s only a name (she added a quirky gender neutral name before her birth names). When she asked for pronouns I avoided them. Became an expert in navigating spoken conversations and written documents without any whatsoever. I didn’t affirm, but I also didn’t evangelise on the fact that I felt it was all bollocks and that she’d realise this by herself in a year or two.

However, by changing her name it was read as a signal by school that we affirmed. They never asked us what was going on, what our therapists were advising, or how we wished to/were handling this. They proceeded with the knowledge of one set of heavily/rabidly pro trans parents with a ‘trans child’ in the junior school. They were vegan, marxist, eco types, despite sending their child to an £18-36k/pa private school. I’ll let you draw your conclusions as to how I felt their advocacy for their child should have had no influence on how mine was handled.

Changing names, humouring pronouns, etc is not a neutral or benign act. It send signals to other agencies such that when I explicitly stated that as a family we did NOT affirm, were adopting the watchful waiting strategy, endeavouring to get her the support she needed for her ASD/ADHD and associated issues (severe social anxiety after lock down, OCD especially in response to puberty/periods, emotional dysregulation - both hormone and socially triggered by the usual teen angst issues) I ended up battling with social services and CAMHS. We held firm, made it clear that we would not support her if she went behind our backs and ordered hormones or tried to fast track to surgery. We made clear that we loved her and would never abandon her, would be there throughout, but that she did not have our blessing.

Despite the fact that many think supporting by use of pronouns is benign and won’t lead to breast binder… it does. My DD obtained them at 12. She spent her 13th birthday in hospital because she had developed a breast cyst the size of a gold ball in one breast. Hardly the best outcome for a gender dysphoric child to have to sit clutching her mum’s hand while two male physicians palpate her naked breast and then aspirate pus from one of them. It was horrific. And it wasn;t even happening to me. I just slept on a roll out bed beside her for 3 nights while she was IVF antibiotics and hoped that aspiration - and not surgery - would be enough.

She is 19 and on a slow, self-led journey to desistance. Her arms are scarred from self harming, but beginning to heal such that she will finally wear short sleeved Tshirts at home now. We haven’t discussed how she feels about it all, but she is devastated that she was so embroiled in this she dropped out of 6th form twice. Lost 3 years of her life, only for her friends to head off to uni without her. She is now doing well on an access to HE course, in the process of applying to uni for next year and had her first driving lesson today.

I’d like to say this is a happy ending, one we’ve achieved through superior knowledge. But we simply held the line and reminded her each every day of how much she is lived. And hoped.

As PPs who follow me on other threads will know, we had a close neighbour whose daughter is the same age (10 day age gap). Discovered gender ideology at 16/17 when went to drama school and found a boyfriend (transmale). Her family affirmed. Within 18m, at 19, she had her breast removed on the NHS and has been on testosterone since 18. Despite having been a psychiatric inpatient for 18m form 14yrs, despite having bi polar. Oh, and the ‘boy’ friend dumped her within weeks of the breast surgery.

This is an epic reply, but one that I hope will encourage you to reach out to Bayswater parents group, to non affirming therapists, to Genspect etc and get support from other parents and professionals before fixing on one route to support. None of the clinicians you encounter via the NHS, via your GP, nor the safeguarding and LGBTQ+ leads at school are in anyway truly expert. You have to become that expert. And I hope you will visit these pages and engage with the many other parents navigating their way through this.

Like me, I am sure you want your child to be happy. But happiness cannot come without physical health and certainly not after medicalised interventions that give young people little chance to change their minds and risk significant and irreversible harm being done.
[Sorry of this is garbled, but it has just poured onto the page.]

CautiousLurker, thankyou so much for sharing this

That is a terrifying warning, @CautiousLurker , thank you for sharing. I’m so sorry you and your daughter have gone through all that.

Didn’t intend to terrify - just to warn that ‘playing along’ under the belief that it is benign and loving has consequences that every parent should be aware of (Dr Cass does reference this in her recent report). It seems counter intuitive and unloving not to affirm, but I would urge caution unless you truly understand the implications and are happy to proceed on that basis.

Non-binary seems to be the more neutral stance on this, so I hope some of the advice other PPs here have offered helps with those loaded conversations. My main advice is to repeat over and over that you love them and will never abandon them whatever they do. I think it has helped anchor my child to her home and family and been the grounding thing that has stopped her doing anything silly (ie dangerous).

I wish you luck and send mum to mum hugs!

When I was deeply anorexic, I felt on numerous occasions that I would happily accept death as the alternative to putting on weight.
I was mentally very unwell, you see. It wasn't a reliable indicator of how important it was that everyone should let me starve.

Seconded

@CautiousLurker your post is so well written. I've seen you talk about your and your daughter's journey before but this post adds yet another angle. You're doing an incredible job 💪💐

Non-binary seems to be the more neutral stance on this, so I hope some of the advice other PPs here have offered helps with those loaded conversations.

Unfortunately it is and it isn't. There are girls who identify as non-binary as part of a journey towards identifying as male and there are others who never identify as male but still bind and then remove their breasts and/or take testosterone. Sadly there doesn't seem to be anything neutral for anyone with a gender identity that differs from their sex. Once you've identified out of your own sex, there is always a chance that you'll make a decision that has an irreversible effect on your body.

@BonfireLady just fell down a google rabbit hole and yes, can see, NB is not the neutral/benign zone I initially thought it was. Of DD’s college mates, “Enby” and “Genderfluid” were quite fashionable (one friend genuinely said she was fem in the summer and masc in the winter 🤦🏽‍♀️). Now I can see that being NB now often seems to involve de-sexing ones body and that its a spot under the trans umbrella that is occupied more by girls. Being NB, I suppose, doesn’t gratify any male sexual proclivities, but does offer girls a means (when medicating and removing breasts) to reject their womanhood.