3 questions for GC women

[ChirpyFinch]

As the title says, three questions for the women in this chat.

1. Do you think the majority of people are gender critical, and why/why not?

2. Globally, the right wing is more vocally gender critical than the left. They are also far more likely to be regressive on a range of women’s issues like abortion and anti-gay. Why do you think they agree with GCs on this one issue but disagree on so much else (if you think they do?)

3. How many trans people do you estimate there are globally?

@GustyFinknottle

Yes lysenkoim is very interesting and a relevant analogy to gender ideology.

It's terrifying that gender ideology has caught hold all over the world in supposedly enlightened democratic countries, when it is so clearly incoherent and damaging.

And yes to Simon McBurney! 😂

@ElleWoods15 "My question though related to the fact that the response was unequivocally ‘how tragic’, ‘how devastating’ to ’s post, relating primarily to how she and the young person’s parent felt."
I think this is another example of gender critical thought being utterly misunderstood by trans allies.
The posters who commented on how tragic the situation of this young person is are not thinking primarily about the adults involved, but of the child herself.
We really do believe that it is tragic for a female child to receive poorly evidenced treatment at the hands of supposed experts that will forshorten their life, lead to lifelong medication dependence, nix any chance of nursing their own child, limit or eliminate their capacity for sexual pleasure in adulthood, give them fragile bones and a host of other adverse effects - with no solid evidence of any beneficial outcomes to balance out the harm, at all.
I am a little baffled that you can read this thread, @ElleWoods15, and believe that gender critical people care more about this person's mother and her friends than they do about the child themself.
(I'm following your lead on pronoun use here in an effort to communicate with you).

BIID is another relevant dysphoric condition.

'Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) is a term used to describe individuals who desire one or more digits or limbs to be amputated, as they believe these are not part of their “self”. It may be regarded as a form of reverse “phantom limb”.

The preoccupation is focussed not on a feeling of defectiveness but on the sufferers’ expectation that they would be much more comfortable if one or more limbs or digits were amputated. They do not believe (as in BDD) their limbs to be defective or ugly nor do they wish cosmetically to alter the limb.
BIID is more akin to a Gender Identity Disorder. BIID is not part of BDD.'

For some reason BIID is seen as different to BDD. I'm not quite sure why this distinction is made.

A doctor in Scotland amputated healthy limbs, and was struck off for it.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2000/feb/01/futureofthenhs.health

https://www.bmj.com/content/320/7231/332.1

(The 'Rapid response' there is interesting. It's an article from 2020.)

And of course one has to then ask why, if amputations of health limbs is not permitted, and the 'eunuch maker' has been jailed, why the NHS is carrying out genital amputations?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68977469

You’re assuming affirmation would resolve any mental health issues as oppose to mask the root of them.

Seems John Money was also involved in the description of BIID:

https://www.scirp.org/html/43284.html

'Firstly described as apotemnophile (amputation lovers) by
Money et al. (1977) and most recently as Xenomelia (McGeogh
et al., 2011; Brugger et al., 2013), a holdover from sexological
research at Johns Hopkins in the 1970s, Body Integrity Identity
Disorder (BIID) is used to describe people who feel from an
early age that part of their body does not belong to them and
they want to get rid of it, no matter what the cost is. They do
not accept a particular limb as part of their body, even if it
there’s nothing wrong with its structure and function'

And of course one has to then ask why, if amputations of health limbs is not permitted, and the 'eunuch maker' has been jailed, why the NHS is carrying out genital amputations?

Exactly.

From Prof Appleby's report:

'Suicide risk in gender dysphoria

The evidence on suicide risk in children and young people with gender dysphoria is generally poor. Most studies are methodologically weak, being based on online surveys and self-selected samples and coming from biased sources. However, there are good reasons to believe that their risk is high compared to other young people. They have often experienced prejudice and intimidation, isolation and family conflict. They may have mental health conditions such as depression and anxiety. There are high rates of autism. These are known risk factors - suicide in any group is usually the result of multiple risks acting in combination.

It therefore seems reasonable to assume that services offering non-judgemental support may contribute to lower risk. However, the evidence for “gender-affirming care” in the form of puberty-blocking drugs is unreliable. In contrast, a robust study from Finland published earlier this year (Ruuska et al, BMJ Mental Health 2024) reported that suicide risk was reduced after gender reassignment but that the improvement was explained by the treatment of co-existing mental ill-health.'

The dismissal of the impact of testosterone on female bodies is something I find surprising. Even though I see it regularly on these threads and on other boards.

Testosterone has such detrimental side effects. We only have to look at the Eastern German athletes to know many of them had shortened lives, they lived in pain.

We also need to listen to the female detransitioners who tell us about the significant pain and limitations on their own lives. The loss of their ovaries to produce estrogen as an under 30 year old that is not yet known whether this impacts very early onset dementia. The pain of the ovaries and uteruses as they go through atrophy and torsion.

Their kidney / bladder / liver damage. The pain throughout their bodies.

I read the story of a 15 year old who was on testosterone who was crying in pain for weeks because of the pain of premature and abrupt menopause. But that because of ideologues encouraging her to keep her eye on the final outcome, becoming a man, she kept going.

All this is dismissed as 'being just a part of the journey to being happy?'. Fuck that sentiment. That has not been evidenced even adequately.

Then there comes to the 'detransition' numbers. Which seem to be consistent for pre-2017 transition at around 8-9%. No one fucking knows what the current cohort who were the exponential increase numbers are yet. It has been judged that it takes on average 7 years to make the decision.

These numbers are constantly dismissed as only around 1% or 2%. No. The information is fucking there in studies that were not focused on detransition but on other issues.

All dismissed. All hand waved away with the misinformation of 'this is 'life saving' and prevents suicides'. How fucking dangerous is that!

Goodness, talk about the sanitising of language: I had no idea that what is now called BIID was previously understood as a paraphilia (/perversion).

I used to detain people under the mental health act. I have never affirmed anyone's delusions, I have told them that I understand that they believe that they are: jesus, the virgin Mary, that they have an insect living in their leg etc etc, but that I believe that they are ill and in need of treatment.
I have detained a woman who believed she was the virgin Mary, as she was also seen to be a risk to herself and others. Why then would we not, at least, assess a man who claims he is Mary, it appears to be more delusional than the woman who claims to be the virgin Mary?

I don't know that BIID has ever been classed as a paraphilia?

Tranvestic fetishism disorder, cross-dressing, can be.

https://www.msdmanuals.com/en-gb/professional/psychiatric-disorders/paraphilias-and-paraphilic-disorders/overview-of-paraphilias-and-paraphilic-disorders

There's been quite a discussion of stupidity and wehtehr it's "stupid" to not be GC. It's my belief that even very clever people can have some very stupid thought patterns. We're all human, we have to make consious efforts to apply critical thinking to our own beliefs, and even then it doesn't always work. And I include myself.

By all means, share some solid evidence that this is all going to turn out well in the long run. Provide some reassurance that young women who take testosterone and have their breasts removed don't suffer from devatasting health problems or devatasting regrets either shortly afterwards or in the longer run. We'd love to hear that. I personally would love to be wrong about this.

But.... when parents express their horror about a youngster undergoing permanent, life-altering and possibly devastating medical and surgical interventions, then blithering about non-gendered language is... stupid.

"But.... when parents express their horror about a youngster undergoing permanent, life-altering and possibly devastating medical and surgical interventions, then blithering about non-gendered language is... stupid."

Indeed.

Some highly intelligent people profess to believe in 'gender' ideas.

I'd say it's not about assessing someone else's intelligence, it's more about critical thinking, cognitive dissonance, both logical and empirical arguments, fallacies, and also 'the intelligence trap'. Tribalism and blind spots are also relevant.

davidrobson.me/books/the-intelligence-trap/

How does the YP feel? Sick, in pain from the operation, still self harming - their arms, legs stomach and even chin/brow are now covered in fresh wounds and scars because, surprise, surprise, cutting her breasts off did not make her a man or resolve her EuPD or any of the other psychiatric issues she is grappling with. Nor did it keep the trans man/boyfriend who groomed her through the whole process and has now left her recovering alone.

The evidence suggests that the sweet-spot for post surgery suicide (the successful kind) is about 2 years. Tbf, I am not sure she will still be with us then. At best I anticipate her becoming an inpatient again, having been sectioned.

Trying to imply that our concern and distress is rooted in a transphobic refusal to accept that her scarred, maimed body is now congruent with some idea of an alternate gendered self is utterly despicable. I changed this kid’s nappy, helped her practice her piano scales. Like my own daughter there was no sign of gender non-conformity pre adolescence. Sometimes mums, the adults that raise children, DO actually know what’s best. And in this case this did NOT involve surgically harming a vulnerable young person within 2 years of a gender identity crisis manifesting.

I am so sorry @CautiousLurker

I am also very sorry to hear this. It must be horrific for her and her family.

@CautiousLurker 😥 that sounds awful

I know @AmaryllisNightAndDay Am devastated for them both. My friend and I were introduced by our health visitor as we’d both moved into the street and had our girls 11 days apart. They moved before lockdown, but were a pretty much daily part of our lives until she was nearly 14, after an acrimonious divorce. Thing is my friend didn’t tell me about the surgery until I had unloaded about the fight to keep my DD away from any socialled so-called - and thus hormones and surgeries - and now I feel awful that she might have inferred that I am critical of her not doing the same. She did the best she could with less resources than I and as a single parent.

This ideology has decimated her family - its ramifications on mine, on my son’s life and education, have been profound. I just can’t accept the ‘BeKind-it’s only a minority of people’ perspective any more. I just can’t.

We are post Cass. Cass as well as numerous other sources have demonstrated there is no substance to the claim that if you don't affirm it increases suicide.

Indeed since we know that suicide is a social contagion and the Samaritans have significant guidance which the media is encouraged to follow to prevent copycats, why do certain posters continue to push this idea within vulnerable communities and their families?

This is not only irresponsible but also downright malicious. It's like so called allies WANT suicides to demonstrate they were right all along.

The trouble is that where the evidence is pointing isn't to support transition.

Yet here we are. Yet again fighting to dispell bollocks that's now outdated because those people telling us we are uneducated and need to get with the program are the ones who aren't keeping up with progress in this area.

This happens so frequently with jumped up sealions who want to try and frame MNetters as out of touch. But who is actually out of touch?

Perhaps we should throw that question back to the OP who has strangely disappeared off the face of the earth after 'innocently' asking a bunch of goady questions....

Perhaps we should bring back the recipes to lighten the tone, if @MNHQ will permit it? I feel some wholesome comfort baking is in order tonight. And a large G&T or two.

I'm so sorry too @CautiousLurker.

Imagine rocking up on a board of women, feminists and not feminists, mothers and not mothers and attempting to lecture and criticise women while displaying an evident lack of knowledge and insight into adolescent vulnerabilities and mental health challenges.
Most women will understand the love and care we can have for our children's friends - how their struggles and concerns can impact on us. It breaks my heart to see these children being caught up in all this

I'm so sorry @CautiousLurker they may be a tiny number of the population but they're not just numbers. They're young people in pain.

Yes, and this at the heart of it all. But the OP and their coterie of zealots feel adding physical pain to the psychic and emotional distress these children already carry is righteous.