3 questions for GC women

[ChirpyFinch]

As the title says, three questions for the women in this chat.

1. Do you think the majority of people are gender critical, and why/why not?

2. Globally, the right wing is more vocally gender critical than the left. They are also far more likely to be regressive on a range of women’s issues like abortion and anti-gay. Why do you think they agree with GCs on this one issue but disagree on so much else (if you think they do?)

3. How many trans people do you estimate there are globally?

Was your child assigned a sex at birth then?

Most of us with Gen Alpha kids found out at the 20 week scan!

simple question - do you believe the difference between men and women is that they have different types of mind?

Excellent question!

A friend of mine grew up with April Ashley as a family friend and saw first hand the impact of being ‘outed’, which was unforgivable. It’s one of the reasons she didn’t understand why I didn’t affirm my DD instantly and fly her off to the States for surgery.

These days, after a few conversations, a few links to detrans bios and the Cass Report she is deeply apologetic. I do now have some trans women connections, ironically all pretty GC, anti interventions on children and YP, and appalled at how the fact that they have tried to live quietly under the radar without special rights or attention and the way this has been scuppered by the current movement. They WERE just ‘living their lives’, as best they could after years of therapy and post op complications, but now everyone has an opinion.

@ElleWoods15
No one is saying that none are coming out, as you put it.
No one is saying that none are coming out - I certainly didn't.

Just that the numbers are smaller than those in younger generations.
Yes - so why are the numbers so much smaller if it's just a question of increased acceptance? And when so many middle-aged men, who grew up in the same climate as the middle-aged women, are declaring themselves women?

Anecdotally, I imagine the same is true in respect of those assigned male at birth.
You mean men and teenage boys? The "same" what?

Only since very recently. I think that maybe lots of people don't actually think about what the word 'assigned' means. If they did, they'd realise that sex cannot be assigned at birth (except in rare dsd cases). Obviously 'gender' can't be assigned at birth either, since newborn babies do not display gender-sterotypes in the form of dress sense, toy preference or stereotypical girlish or boyish behaviour!

I agree that it’s not nice for posters to imply not being GC is a sign of uninformed mind. Or, a more straightforward way of putting that is that holding GC views does not give a monopoly on intelligence. Many of my otherwise highly intelligent colleagues are of the #BeKind mindset. But we don’t agree necessarily on what they’d call other ‘social justice’ issues. Now I personally struggle to understand how anyone is not a sex realist, but I wouldn’t say that they’re not intelligent.

The terminology ‘assigned at birth’ is used in the Cass Report.

As I say, it’s pretty standard terminology used professionally when discussing the issues discussed in this thread.

I thought the terms 'birth registered females' and 'birth registered males' are used mostly throughout the Cass report instead of assigned male/female at birth

I can’t even begin to imagine what you mean by this.

It might be commonly used in some places, but it is clearly inaccurate and incorrect. My children's sex was observed on scans, many months before their births. No "assigning" was done.

Both are used.

In your opinion.

It's not an opinion, Elle. It's a fact that doctors do not decide a persons sex. The fact that they very occasionally make a mistake does not mean that healthcare professionals "assign" people's sex.

Let's try reframing it:

What is the difference between men and women?

Where does the conclusion that those who are/were third gender are ‘men who fail to live up to […] masculine gender stereotypes’ come from?

Re Hijra as an example of the concept of a ‘third gender’ comes from:

"When Hijra grew up, they understood that they were different from
other males in numerous respects, such as that they used to play with girls and have feelings for boys….Even though India is accepting of a wide range of cultures, a family in that situation cannot tolerate it when their male child begins to act in a feminine manner. It is usual for parents to explain their child's reaction to many situations (Chakrapani, 2010). Furthermore, the hijra is finally banished from their families due to their cross-dressing. Their female attitudes become impediments to their academic and professional success. They are routinely abused, forced, and exploited outside of their families and social lives (Chowdhury, 2020). In many cases, social marginalization begins at home."

Hossain et al 2024

Other interpretations are, of course, possible but that reads to me that young effeminate (hate that word), likely gay, boys/young men are rejected by both family and wider society for being gay and as a result this subculture was created. To ‘other’ gay men as not being really or fully male.

Of course in my opinion. Although it is factually true that the sex of my children was observed in utero many months before they were born. And no assigning took place when they were then born, just the correct noting of their sex on their medical records.

Insisting that we call that "assigning a gender/sex at birth" is an ideological position, not a neutral use of language.

@ElleWoods15 Could you please explain how you would define a man or a woman? I am genuinely interested!

You haven't thought deeply about any of the assertions you make, it seems.

I can assure you I have. But that particular question makes no sense.

I do now have some trans women connections, ironically all pretty GC, anti interventions on children and YP, and appalled at how the fact that they have tried to live quietly under the radar without special rights or attention and the way this has been scuppered by the current movement. They WERE just ‘living their lives’, as best they could after years of therapy and post op complications, but now everyone has an opinion.

Strangely enough the transwomen friends I have feel the same. We are often told on here that we do not speak for all women and yet, with some serious irony, the gender ideologists, trans allies, trans rights extremists that post on here do not speak for all trans people either but claim they do. The TW I know are adamant that they are not women, they are not identifying as women and they are not living as women they are male, they know they are male and they are transwomen, they live as transwomen. The last identifying as/living as trans ally that gushed and fawned over them trying to show how very right on they were got very short shrift and was told in no uncertain terms how insulting and offensive they found them. They are appalled by the rhetoric used and the demands being made, apparently on their behalf, their lives have been made harder because of it.

I doubt that will make a dent in those that insist on promoting gender ideology on here but it should.

Do you really think so? They look so conformist.

I think gender is assigned at birth by sexist people. Though sex isn't, obviously. They assign a feminine gender to their female children and thus you get those stupid pink headbands with flowers on for a bald baby, and they throw away their perfectly servicable black or brown buggy bought for their older son because they need a pink or purple buggy for their little princess, and they throw away all the little babygrow suits with dinosaurs or trucks or rockets on them and buy ones with Rainbows and unicorns and slogans like "be kind".

Other children are brought up with as little gender as possible and have no gender assigned at birth though their sex will usually be rationally recognised (though not allowed to influence any assumptions) and the boys will be just as encouraged to try ballet and play with dolls and toy prams, and to be kind and considerate as the girls, and the girls will be just as encouraged to play with mechanno and trucks and to play rough and tumble games as the boys.

I would be really interested to see if there's any difference in the incidence of children later identifying as trans or non-binary between these groups. Rationally anyone in the latter group raised without sexism as far as possible might well feel a strong affinity to the description of being non-binary as they would recognise all gender as sexism to be rejected, but perhaps they'd be less likely to want they/them pronouns as they would recognise that all non-sexist people (which hopefully will gradually be most people as society gets the hang of it) are technically non-binary. But that's just my hypothesis, it would be interesting to know if the facts match these ideas or not.

@ElleWoods15 do you genuinely not see the connection to your previous posts?

You have commented negatively on a post that suggests that being male or female (man/woman) is biological. You seem to think that's wrong and regressive. So what does make someone male or female, if not their body? A logical question is then, is it something in the mind? Or even something metaphysical like souls or an essence?

I’ve commented before on identification @SilenceInside , and the pile on that resulted was pretty appalling.