3 questions for GC women

[ChirpyFinch]

As the title says, three questions for the women in this chat.

1. Do you think the majority of people are gender critical, and why/why not?

2. Globally, the right wing is more vocally gender critical than the left. They are also far more likely to be regressive on a range of women’s issues like abortion and anti-gay. Why do you think they agree with GCs on this one issue but disagree on so much else (if you think they do?)

3. How many trans people do you estimate there are globally?

An excellent quote has just been posted on another thread:

When intelligent people affiliate themselves to ideology, their intellect ceases to guard against wishful thinking, and instead begins to fortify it, causing them to inadvertently mastermind their own delusion, and to very cleverly become stupid.

Gurwinder Bhogal

As I’ve already said, the incapacity of GC Mumsnetters to comprehend that an intelligent person can come to a different view than them is disappointing.

I'm left wing all the way... apart from this issue.

As are all my friends and family who are also GC.

I can't prevent a "pile on" but you could just try responding to people who ask reasonable questions, rather than everyone.

It seems from what you're saying that it's simply a question of identification superseding biology. What you state you identify as is more important and relevant than one's sex.

People can't comprehend what you refuse to explain.

The post is about intelligent people, Elle. It also was a general post, you're not the only other poster on the thread.

I was about to say this, but not nearly as succinctly as you!

Yes, it was pretty offensive. But I’m not sure I’m surprised….

For some reason many people who favour gender identity ideology on this site and others are often reluctant to explain their rationale, and share their research.

How can male people (penis, balls, XY chromosomes) meaningfully identify as female people (vulva, ovaries, XX chromosomes)?

How does ‘identifying’ change one’s biological sex?

Sex (back to evolution again!) is a reproductive strategy common to all mammals. What does it mean to identify as egg-haver when you are sperm-jizzer?

Yes, it was pretty offensive.

It's about the nature of ideology, Elle, it doesn't pertain solely to you, but all of us, in the right circumstances.

I mean, I can give the "gender critical" feminist position on gender succinctly and in a fairly short post. I have done on this thread and on many others under many other user names. It gets clearer and more succinct the more I give it.

You've thought a lot about gender identity and its deep importance to society. Don't you have a short summary to hand, @ElleWoods15 ?

What about GC men? Do they not get any questions? Or do they need to identify as women to have their say?

My reasoning for not sharing further is very clear: I was subjected to some pretty abusive posts on doing so a few days back.

I’m not asking you to agree with me. And I don’t have to justify myself to you, or provide a CV or bibliography to back up my views.

My point is simply that our views can differ without descending to the conclusion that anyone who isn’t GC is necessarily either unintelligent or alternatively blinded by ‘ideology’.

I've given this some thought and I think the reason why left leaning people are more susceptible to this ideology comes down to some of the following ...

More utopian in their thinking

More tribal in their thinking (whereas the right tend to go with their gut a bit more)

More trusting of authority generally (and not paying enough attention to see what's been going on in areas like medicine that they hold in high trust)

More brainwashed by the 'be kind' type mantras and less inclined to interrogate beyond this.

I also feel left leaning men are often every bit as misogynistic as right leaning men, it's just that certain women's rights issues (abortion access for example) have suited their agenda, so they went with it.

Pleased to see the recipes making an appearance.

This OP behaves as though they are interviewing a bunch of recalcitrant employees for an EDI panel.

Kudos to those who have the patience to humour it. I don't.

My point is simply that our views can differ without descending to the conclusion that anyone who isn’t GC is necessarily either unintelligent or alternatively blinded by ‘ideology’.

It would be great if you could demonstrate this rather than just asserting it.

Also more inclined to believe in the perfectibility of human society?
Keener on social engineering - sort of elides into the belief that you can change reality through laws or edicts.

If what makes a human being either a man or a woman is NOT their physical body, then what is it? If its their mind, then that makes no sense. If the mind were that powerful then no bad things would ever happen. If I can use my mind to be a man instead of a woman, then surely I should be able to use my mind to cure my epilepsy. If only Stephen Hawking had used his brilliant mind to stop motor neurone disease disabling his body.

It's incoherent and ludicrous.

We are alive because we have bodies. Whether you believe in souls or not, each and every one of us resides in our bodies and those bodies shape our lives, for good or bad.

"The Man With Two Brains" was a movie, not a documentary.

Yeah that's what I was trying to get at with the utopian point.

David Sylvian and Nick Rhodes are the same person.

@ElleWoods15 if you aren't interested in explaining your position then it can and will be dismissed out of hand. It's not of interest to anyone else, if it's not up for scrutiny or questioning.

But you can see how it's a little, odd, to tell other people their views are regressive and so on, without explaining why or being prepared to explain why your alternative opinion is more valid and well reasoned.

Really? It seems pretty simple to me. There's no weird langauge here, I simply asked if you believe the difference between men and women is that they have different types of mind?

But I'll try and explain even more simply...

I think the difference between men and women is that we have different bodies.

A person such as yourself who believes that trans gender identities are more than just sexist projection does not think the difference between men and women is that we have different bodies (because that would mean trans people could not exist) yet still thinks men and women are meaningful and different categories. (again, because otherwise trans people could not exist).

Logically, there is only the body and the mind. So if the body is not the seat of the difference, it must be the mind.

So I would simply like to know on what basis you believe men and women to be different.

Do you believe the difference between men and women is that they have different types of mind? If not, what is the difference?

It is obviously a very significant difference if because of it men and women need separate spaces, separate sports, different language, in the case of women extra rights, opportunities and protections, and in the case of people "assigned" the wrong way it's important enough to undergo social if not medical transition and all the challenges that brings... so what is it?