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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

592 replies

LunaNorth · 25/08/2024 10:10

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

So this trend. I’m bridling at the ‘demure and mindful’ bullshit being promoted by someone who is performing femininity.

Demure and mindful women seldom make history. Here we go again, being sent back into our boxes by men.

Jools Lebron on Jimmy Kimmel Live

Very demure, very mindful - are we missing joke of Jools Lebron trend?

A demure TikTok has gone viral, but is it an ironic joke or does it set unrealistic standards for women?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

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Datun · 25/08/2024 11:23

FreedomDogs · 25/08/2024 11:19

And we all know men shouldn't be wearing make up, right girls, that's our shit that we were born with on our faces and have written into our DNA 🙄🙄

Like seriously even if you believe trans women are men, why the fuck shouldn't they wear make up?

It's amazing watching a group of so called "gender criticals" who clearly actually aren't interested in being critical of gender stereotypes at all, they just want to uphold them because Make up is for GIRLS apparently. Does it not bother you that this trans person is actually being more gender critical than you are right now?

lol. using an argument that claims this person is a male, is transphobic by your own rules.

just in case you really don't get it. Men wearing make up is fine. Men claiming they're women and that's why they're wearing make up isn't.

quantumbutterfly · 25/08/2024 11:23

Grace Jones & Annie Lennox knew they were women.

LunaNorth · 25/08/2024 11:23

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 25/08/2024 11:18

This sums it up for me. It's a tiktok trend like the 1000s of other tiktok trends that make little sense and come and go in 5mins. It's really not as deep as the BBC article makes it out to be.

I used to be behind the whole gender critical thing and still am when it comes to certain things but shit like this on this board just comes across as pathetic and nitpicking.

Is it pathetic and nitpicking to be questioning why the BBC keeps shoving this sort of stuff on the homepage, though?

There was an article about Charlie XCX earlier this summer that was headlined, ‘Vulnerable, messy and bratty : the pop girlies having a moment.’

Now we have ‘demure and mindful’.

It irritates the fuck out of me. Along with the endless articles about Kamala Harris’s suit choice. What designer makes Trump’s suits?

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2024 11:23

Why do you need to know they're trans so urgently? You don't. It doesn't matter. Calm down.

People are telling you they have an issue with it. You calm down. Hyperbole from your first post on the thread.

FreedomDogs · 25/08/2024 11:24

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Helleofabore · 25/08/2024 11:24

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2024 11:25

It irritates the fuck out of me. Along with the endless articles about Kamala Harris’s suit choice.

Yes, I couldn't care less what suit she wears.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2024 11:26

Because it is pretty simple. This person is trans. You're angry that they're trans.

They're male. That's the entire objection. "Trans" is irrelevant other than we're supposed to fawn over it.

And the angriest person on the thread is you.

LunaNorth · 25/08/2024 11:27

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Blimey.

Are you always this quick to anger and hyperbole? Over every issue?

Watch your blood pressure.

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OldCrone · 25/08/2024 11:27

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TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 25/08/2024 11:28

LunaNorth · 25/08/2024 11:23

Is it pathetic and nitpicking to be questioning why the BBC keeps shoving this sort of stuff on the homepage, though?

There was an article about Charlie XCX earlier this summer that was headlined, ‘Vulnerable, messy and bratty : the pop girlies having a moment.’

Now we have ‘demure and mindful’.

It irritates the fuck out of me. Along with the endless articles about Kamala Harris’s suit choice. What designer makes Trump’s suits?

Because it's popular culture and gets clicks. That's it.

LonginesPrime · 25/08/2024 11:28

This is a well-worn joke among drag queens.

What's interesting is that the BBC article, in an effort to virtue signal that they believe that TWAW, have tied themselves in knots obfuscating the notion that a male in a dress and make-up might not look demure, by pretending that they think it might not be a joke, as if they didn't clock that Lebron isn't actually the dainty creature they claim to be.

They even had to quote Lebron explaining that it's a joke because the BBC didn't want to risk accusations of transphobia by laughing at the joke without first checking with the source that it was intended as a joke before they laugh at it.

And then, so as not to focus on the juxtaposition of Lebron's presentation with their self-description of said presentation (in case they insinuated anything offensive to trans people), they instead veered off into some random commentary about social media trends and changing language.

Which I find much funnier than the actual joke.

Datun · 25/08/2024 11:28

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LOL. 'Bridled' I think was the word.

And yes, we can see that you're incapable of addressing any of the arguments.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2024 11:29

Is it ok to comment on how vapid it all is @TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree or should we just be silent. The point of TikTok is that everyone can share their banal nonsense with the world, so why can't women on mumsnet?

MyOtherCarisAVauxhallZafira · 25/08/2024 11:30

There seem to be videos all over social media of people who don't understand what the words mean, so I asked a colleague (a good decade or two younger than me) she didn't seem to really understand it either, other than some people find it funny. I don't think anyone is implying women ought to be demure or mindful (although the latter feels misused in this context anyway).

For the record more than happy for men to wear as much make up as they like on the understanding it doesn't change your biology. Off out now wearing a dress but no make up, maybe I'm genderless?

LunaNorth · 25/08/2024 11:30

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 25/08/2024 11:28

Because it's popular culture and gets clicks. That's it.

With no care for the damage it might do.

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OldCrone · 25/08/2024 11:31

FreedomDogs · 25/08/2024 11:20

Why do you need to know they're trans so urgently? You don't. It doesn't matter. Calm down.

I don't object to him doing what he's doing because he identifies as "trans". The objection is because he is male.

But what do you think transgenderism is? Why is it such an important concept to you? What do you think makes someone 'trans'?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2024 11:31

What's interesting is that the BBC article, in an effort to virtue signal that they believe that TWAW, have tied themselves in knots obfuscating the notion that a male in a dress and make-up might not look demure, by pretending that they think it might not be a joke, as if they didn't clock that Lebron isn't actually the dainty creature they claim to be.

They even had to quote Lebron explaining that it's a joke because the BBC didn't want to risk accusations of transphobia by laughing at the joke without first checking with the source that it was intended as a joke before they laugh at it.

And then, so as not to focus on the juxtaposition of Lebron's presentation with their self-description of said presentation (in case they insinuated anything offensive to trans people), they instead veered off into some random commentary about social media trends and changing language.

That is actually quite funny, thank you for making me look at it that way!

OldCrone · 25/08/2024 11:32

Like seriously even if you believe trans women are men

Of course they're men. Only men can be transwomen.

CabbagesAndCeilingWax · 25/08/2024 11:33

The BBC article is very good. It outlines clearly the tension between something that was said as a joke, and which is being used largely as exactly that - a piss take of outdated expectations - but which a small number of people are now coopting as some sort of serious aspiration.

It's already wildly over-used on SM, but it did start off being used in quite a funny, irreverent way.

Gingernaut · 25/08/2024 11:33

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PurpleSparkledPixie · 25/08/2024 11:33

FreedomDogs · Today 10:17
It's a joke. Are trans people not even allowed to make jokes now?

SulkySeagull · Today 10:57
It’s a joke.

Can either of you explain this funny joke? Because if you can't then it's not funny and not a joke.

Datun · 25/08/2024 11:34

Also, I suspect the mindful part means mindful of their behaviour, attitudes, decibel level and of course all the men in their lives.

Not meditative.

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 25/08/2024 11:34

LunaNorth · 25/08/2024 11:30

With no care for the damage it might do.

Well I've seen the trend on tiktok and it mostly seems to consist of people saying wtf is 'demure' and people cramming cakes in their face and saying ooh look how I eat this cake, very demure, very mindful. The 'damage' seems to be minimal.

Helleofabore · 25/08/2024 11:34

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”Because it is pretty simple. This person is trans. You're angry that they're trans. You're angry that a newstory didn't make a huge deal of it. You're angry they're having 5 minutes of fame. Because they're trans. And trans people in your head shouldn't dare do that. Shouldn't dare exist, be normal, be talked about like they're just normal, like the rest of us, like their transness isn't that important. It makes you furious to see her treated like a normal member of society. Because you don't want trans people to be viewed or treated as normal. There is no explanation for your reaction to this that isn't rooted in bigotry.”

Well. The hyperbole is rife all the way through that post.

You have again misrepresented my view. And you have again shown you have no intention of attempting to.

This is about a MALE person who is mocking the sexist stereotypes that female people have had to deal with for millennia. While being discussed in that article as if they are a woman who is bravely mocking those stereotypes.

They are not.

As I have pointed out, it is that they are male. Not because they are trans.

This person has the male socialisation and the privilege of being male to make these videos where they are flouting the female stereotypes. They are celebrated in this article as if they are female when they are male.

And I am not “furious”, I am not a “bigot” and I am not “denying this person’s existance”. I am clearly questioning why they are being celebrated for being some kind of brave female person as per the language used on the BBC.