‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

[LunaNorth]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

So this trend. I’m bridling at the ‘demure and mindful’ bullshit being promoted by someone who is performing femininity.

Demure and mindful women seldom make history. Here we go again, being sent back into our boxes by men.

Why is Jools Lebrun eligible for special protection under the equality act and from the police and society generally, that ‘other’ women are not?

Would you have leapt to defend any female influencer from criticism about a tasteless joke with the same vigour as Ms Lebrun has been defended here?

While we are asking questions that would be helpful to understand, I think it would be useful to know whether people would find a male comedian who wore make up making the same ‘jokes’ about female sex stereotypes and how they have rejected them acceptable and funny? What about a drag queen?

Or is the person in the BBC article to be celebrated because they have been considered a ‘woman’ and therefore they are bravely defying female sex stereotypes?

Is why we are expected to accept this? And consider it a joke?

The common characteristic which defines all women is that they have xx chromosomes and more overtly - the biological and bodily signifiers of the female sex.

Whether or not a female is fertile or not; has children or not; she will have a female reproductive system and the secondary sexual characteristics which support and mirror that.

Exactly.....the only characteristics which are common to all women are XX chromosomes and having been through female puberty - with all that implies. What women do or do not do with their female body; how they live their life is an individual matter, as well as a cultural matter in many societies.

Nonsense really means "no sense"; as in the line of thought or argument displays irrational or illogical inconsistencies. To have a reasoned debate, you have to use reason, and that reasoning has to be open to scrutiny.

How can you talk about women when you have no clear definition of a woman?

We all know what a woman is, really - and that is an adult human female. Being a woman is primarily a biological reality, not a social concept.

What many of us don't accept, and seek clarity on, is what "identifying as" actually means. As soon as someone questions it their character gets insulted. For example just look at Elles posts. We cannot understand her thinking, seek clarity as to why she thinks both men and women are women. Even after five pages she hasn't explained it. I might not like her explanation but I would like to understand why she thinks it. A childish "because they can" isn't an explanation btw.

Exactly. Why is clarity and an explanation on identifying as and living as so difficult for those who believe in it to provide?

I have my own opinion as to why no clarity or explanation is forthcoming which is because it is based entirely on sexist and misogynistic stereotypes and those who say it and believe in it do not want to admit that. Otherwise they would have to admit that they believe the women and girls in Afghanistan are willingly accepting, enjoying and are complicit in their treatment by the Taliban. And not just the women and girls in present day Afghanistan, women and girls the world over since time immemorial are responsible for their own treatment and oppression at the hands of men because they have/are identifying as and living as women.

Cognitive dissonance is what is created when one tries to hold together two incompatible beliefs. The cognitive function detects a flaw or a conflict in the information processing -whereby one piece of information does not fit the established pattern and as a result the cognitive function is effectively paralysed.

It was my own cognitive dissonance that brought me to FWR in the first place.

I recognised that I was holding two beliefs that could be contradictory - “be kind” and a desire for single sex spaces. I actually put the whole topic aside in my head for a while recognising that as I didn’t have the bandwidth to deal with it. When I was ready to face it, I “did my research” and very quickly realised my biological realist position.

However, you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Those who hold their position as an article of faith only are always going to struggle to explain and defend their position. They don’t have an underlying rationale as to why they hold that position in the first place, which is one of the reasons we end up with meaningless TWAW slogans.

However, you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Those who hold their position as an article of faith only are always going to struggle to explain and defend their position. They don’t have an underlying rationale as to why they hold that position in the first place, which is one of the reasons we end up with meaningless TWAW slogans.

Completely agree.

I think pretending transwomen are women, is transphobic. It always shocks me on threads like this. Those claiming to be so supportive of the trans community, trying to erase them.

Trans women have completely different life experiences to women. They have completely different biology. TRAs love to talk about ‘trans erasure’, then participate in trying to erase a massive part of trans people lives by saying ‘Trans women are women’.

Trans women are experience the world as a trans woman. Which is different to a woman. By calling them a woman you are ‘erasing’ - huge part of who they are. Isn’t that ‘literal violence’?

Many many trans women don’t want or need to be called women. They know they won’t ever be women and don’t want their life experience to be erased because some (very vocal) TRAs have decided it should be that way.

Alot of people on the TWAW train, actually prove that it’s not true. They wouldn’t defend a woman who is telling other women they need to ‘get it together’ and be demure at work. In fact on Tiktok (where this ‘joke’ started) women who talk about how ‘women should be elegant’ are regularly called all sorts of names.

The ‘this person is a woman’ people are the most transphobic on these boards. Always amazes me that their transphobia isn’t deleted.

I would do so if I had - but I didn’t. I was discussing the ‘fuck off’ off statements with another poster - are you thinking of that?

Related to this, ‘successful’ transwomen insisting they are women really undermines the position of less successful transwomen.

When attractively presented men claim they are women, like Ms Lebrun, arguably, they erase the problems of people like MsTickle whose biggest issue in daily life is not going to be struggling to access women’s internet corners. Maybe MsTickle is keen on acceptance online because of their less successful personal presentation.

Most transwomen do not experience acceptance and success the way India Willoughby and others do. Their success doesn’t offer representation to the average transwoman, I would argue. It undermines it.

I realise the above may be controversial. I’d appreciate it being dismembered for all to see rather than deleted, if at all possible.

Please educate me.

I should, of course, have said " rational or logical " inconsistencies. not 'irrational' and' illogical' inconsistencies😂

My personal sticking point is ‘you wish transwomen didn’t exist’ followed by ‘trans women are women.’

Well, I’m happy that transwomen exist. I call them what they are - transwomen. I’ll respect them for what they are. I’ll applaud them going about their business, in their own spaces, doing no harm to others.

What I won’t do is ignore the trans bit and pretend they’re women.

So which one of us wishes the ‘trans’ bit didn’t exist?

Nothing.

No. I believe you posted this in a post for me.

How would you know what my view is? You just told me to fuck off before you heard it

You did say that @Caliga. Benefit of the doubt, you were paraphrasing and reading between the lines, no? But just to be clear Helle didn't actually say "fuck off" to you, it was FreedomDogs.

@ThreeWordHarpy

You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

That's a succinct rewording of my faith analogy.

I've lost patience with 'be kind'.
Biological men are taking awards, opportunities, power and safety from biological women and we are bullied, mocked and shamed into accepting it. They take the words we have to describe ourselves and accuse us of trying to erase their existence.
I had wondered if the TRA frenzy was just the mindlessness of groupthink but I see it's a more deliberate subjugative power play than that.
They hurt childrens' minds and bodies with this ideology and try to frame it as care. It's an acceptable form of 'radicalisation' but somehow biological realists are the radicals. Astonishing.

“However, you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Those who hold their position as an article of faith only are always going to struggle to explain and defend their position. They don’t have an underlying rationale as to why they hold that position in the first place, which is one of the reasons we end up with meaningless TWAW slogans.”

Yes. This is important.

Therefore to convince others, they have to use some form of emotional reasoning, at times manipulation such as shame.

I am always keen to see if there is evidence that underpins the opinion and what it is that convinced someone. Sometimes that way we also get to see some new papers, studies, or points that haven’t yet been considered. I do live in hope.

While some people feel that their evidence gets pulled apart, the reality is that if that evidence doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, it is weak. Even if what we have is just a thought, or a grouping of weaker evidence that stands up logically and can be used for inference in the absence of clear evidence to support a specific statement, that is well worthy of consideration.

If you, general you, don’t have confidence about the evidence withstanding scrutiny and analysis, why would you hold an opinion so strongly? I am very keen to have evidence I present evaluated. Because when I look at the criticism of the evidence, I can judge if I have made an error in my understanding of it, or if I just need to work harder to find the truth amongst the mass of misinformation we are presented with from media and even sources we should find reliable every day. This is the way I learn new stuff every day.

I did used to think this was a common approach until I struck the mantra of ‘TWAW’. Now, I think it is not quite as common as I believed.

You know hector, I tried to articulate this yesterday and failed. But you have done it here.

Those who come onto threads and demand that these male people be treated only ever as if they are women, are treating that group as one homogeneous group. When they are not. And we know this because we listen to a wide range of voices from that group.

It is why I stopped using the term ‘trans rights activist’ and instead added an ‘extreme’ in front. Because I support transgender people being able to campaign for their rights, those that every person in the UK should have. Of course they should do that.

The ‘extreme transgender rights activist’ is the group who demand additional rights, extra rights over all other groups. These are the activists that demand that gender should be given priority over sex at all times rather than those who accept that sometimes sex does matter.

Thanks hector.

@Helleofabore

*No. I believe you posted this in a post for me.

How would you know what my view is? You just told me to fuck off before you heard it

I see. I missed that. I must have seen the 'fuck off' at that point and mixed it up for me. Easy to do, given all the knives being flung out at once. You can see it's somewhat rephrased though.

I'm not sure why you're trying to squeeze an apology out of me. I haven't done anything to you.

I see.

😮

So it's everybody else's fault you misread Helle's post. Got it.

I'm not familiar with this trend as others are, but I don't think the creator meant it to be taken that seriously. The reason why I believe it's caught on is partly because there's something hypnotic about the way the creator says the trademark sentence.

That a really good point. It is extreme trans rights activist, you are right.

But it has made me think, I don’t think I have ever come across someone who claims to be a TRA who isn’t extreme.

I know 2 trans people who would be offended to be called TRAs, because it’s become synonymous with the extreme ‘if a man says he is a woman then he is and should be treated like a woman in all circumstances’ and ‘women need to shut up and not complain’ and ‘your trans friends have so much to deal with, it’s your responsibility to do thinks for them. Do their food shop. Do their cleaning, or their clothes washing and take some of the mental load off them’ stances.

So I think to me TRAs are already an extreme if you see what I mean. But I do think the ‘extreme’ differentiates well, especially when using the written word like on here.