Israel society debates the right to rape

[Rymeswithpunt]

People are accusing Israel of being a right to rape state.

Do people here think this is an issue for feminists?

A bit of context;

www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/9/everything-is-legitimate-israeli-leaders-defend-soldiers-accused-of-rape

https://wrap.substack.com/p/israel-debates-the-right-to-rape

I just cannot believe what I read.

Just devastating.

I should like to think it's a humanitarian issue. No stratification necessary.

Plainly I'm wrong.

So... there is a proposal before the state legislature in Israel to decriminalise rape? Or in the hell which is war, have some people said hateful things and attempted to defend the indefensible?
The title and the content are a mismatch.

This is horrifying

yes, it is a feminist issue, even if most of the victims are male. This is the perpetuation of a culture of men using sex or sex like acts as
violence. The primary focus should be on their direct victims, but we should also acknowledge that the men who perpetuated these crimes and the people who endorsed them are going home to their families.

I think the people who are looking for justification for this barbarity are part of a genocidal mind set whereupon Palestinians have been systematically dehumanised.

They no longer see Palestinians as human beings deserving of respect or basic humanity. For years Palestinians have been reduced to animals and relegated as sub human. This is the natural consequence.

It’s clearly appalling.

But rape is well established as a war crime - so it’s not actually surprising, grim though that is to write.

I know but I as far as I know this is the first time its being legally recognized as a right by the state

I don't believe it's been legally recognised. I believe they are finding justification for it saying anything is acceptable to defend Israel. Torture and sexual violence is against the Geneva Convention and international human rights law.

But until a year ago not a huge feature of the Israel-Palestine conflict. 🙁

This is beyond horrendous, I read as far as the rape bit, but couldn't go any further. However, I don't think this post should be on FWR because it is not primarily about women. It's about male violence, yes, but that's not the same thing.

Dear god what did I just read?

Rape of prisoners is acceptable and what we need to do is find out who filmed and shared it because they're making us look bad.

I have no words.

Did Israel not understand the Geneva Convention when they signed it?

So many civilians on both sides are suffering and it’s going to get much worse, I fear.

It’s terrifying, like watching Bosnia/Herzegovena unfold in the 90s only-this-time-with-nukes-and-links-to-superpowers.

"violations of the laws of war that amount to war crimes, including attacks targeting civilians and civilian objects; willful killing of people in custody; cruel and other inhumane treatment; crimes involving sexual and gender-based violence; hostage-taking; mutilation and despoiling bodies; use of human shields; and pillage and looting." October 7 Crimes Against Humanity, War Crimes by Hamas-led Groups | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)
These things are wrong whoever does them; unfortunately, it's hard to find a conflict in which they are not carried out by men on both sides.

Male violence is a worldwide problem, including male violence against each other - I hope men have set up an equivalent of FWR where they can discuss how to be less violent.

I wish men against male violence well with their discussions, but we have enough on our plate on this thread..

I'd be cautious of what Al Jazeera have to say about Israel

I dunno, if the nature of this war is your band of brothers will publicly rape a prisoner as a way of torturing him and everyone else lying there wondering if they will be next, and that is “permisssble” then you have a lot of war-affected rapists going back into society which won’t end well for the women and children around them.

Yes it is a feminist issue because they’ve been doing it to female detainees as much as the teenage boy ones, like this 16yr old boy critically injured through gang rape with penises and a stick.

Israeli prison guards/soldiers were using sticks to forcibly rape female Palestinians since the 1960s:
“Odeh, who was arrested in 1969 at the age of 19, reported that during her interrogation, she was beaten with wooden sticks and metal bars, and was left naked in a blatant violation of her sexuality.
Odeh was sexually tortured with electric shocks. Wires were attached to her genitals, breasts, abdomen, arms, and legs, and in that disoriented state, she was raped with a stick while her father was forced to watch.
The testimony of another female Palestinian prisoner appears in a book chapter by Tamar Mayer: “They [Israeli interrogators] beat me with a stick…on my stomach…[T]hen one day, they told me to take my clothes off […] I was shaking. A dark big ugly man came in with a stick and I knew he was going to rape me with it […] all eight interrogators came in, to fondle me, laugh at me, touch my breasts. I was so ashamed.”
https://mondoweiss.net/2022/08/how-colonizers-weaponize-rape-reflections-from-the-palestinian-case/

I think the sad thing is that there hasn’t even been a discussion of legality of rape until it was exposed that it had happened to a 16yr old boy when female Palestinian prisoners have been systematically raped since the country existed.

I think it should. There is a discussion to be had that it’s not even a contentious issue when female detainees have been and are currently being raped, it’s carry on soldier, but rape boys and ummm we are going to have to arrest you.

From the point of view of the rapists amongst the soldiery, since it is ok to rape females why are you arresting me for raping a boy? That’s homophobic! If I have the right to rape girls and women like we have done for decades with impunity, I should also have the right to rape boys.

There is a feminist angle to the selective outrage over raping boys but silence over raping girls and women.

Did you know that Israeli male officers have punished female Israeli soldiers by beating them up and then locking them up with male Palestinian prisoners specifically so they can rape the female Israeli soldiers?

“On Tuesday, a court allowed the media to publish that the prisoner suspected of raping a former soldier and potentially abusing others is Mahmoud Atallah.
Atallah has been in solitary confinement since 2018, over a scandal in which [Israeli] intelligence officer Rani Basha allegedly “pimped” [Israeli] female guards to him and to other Palestinian inmates, at his request. Last month, Barlev approved firing Basha, who had been on leave since November 2021.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-rape-claims-in-prison-service-gantz-and-barlev-to-examine-soldiers-service/

Some of these female Israeli soldiers that were raped say it was punishment for protesting the rape and sexual abuse of female Palestinian prisoners by their male colleagues.

I agree- once you train men to be violent in a military setting, there may not be an off-switch, for example this ex-soldier used the skills he was taught in the British army to hunt down and rape young women and girls:
An ex-soldier has been convicted of raping three teenagers after meticulously planning the attacks.
A Bristol Crown court jury convicted Jonathan Haynes, 30, of Northampton, of rape, kidnap and attempted kidnap.
Haynes abducted and raped a girl, 16, after she had left a nightclub in Chippenham, Wilts, in September 2009.
He raped an 18-year-old student in halls of residence at the University of Glamorgan, Pontypridd, 13 days later and a girl, 17, in Chippenham in 2010.
In February 2010, he tried to snatch two 14-year-old girls from a country lane near the Wiltshire town.
Ex-soldier Jonathan Haynes guilty of rape and kidnap - BBC News

im not a theologian but my clumsy understanding is that neither Orthodox Judaism nor Islam have a tolerant approach to male homosexuality. I assume that is where the outrage about male rape comes from. Women’s suffering at the hands of men simply never matters, whether that is in a faith based or secular society.

"Rape has long been a feature of ........... culture."
Just about any entity ruled by men fits in there.

This is exactly what people were saying in the USA when the photographs of sexual abuse at Abu Ghraib came to light. The young soldier who revealed them had death threats. I think he had to be transferred under a new name? It was OK to do these things but not to publicise them.

Yes, I agree. Women’s suffering doesn’t matter and we are told well that’s just what happens in war when you have female prisoners get over it. Similar reactions to the Hamas rapes of Israeli women and continuing rapes of Israeli female hostages.