Imane Khelif

[LHayday]

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

If I was an Olympic boxer and the IBA were falsely stating I was a bio male, then instead of posing in a pretty dress and trying to perform femininity, I would be getting a cheek swab. I might be angry about having to prove myself. But I would want to shut those meddling Russians up and put the whole thing to bed.

But I would want to shut those meddling Russians up and put the whole thing to bed.

So the only logical conclusion we can draw is that Algeria and the IOC are part of the whole Kremlin conspiracy, and don't want to fatally undermine their misinformation.

If IK had XX chromosomes they would say so. It’s as simple as that.

This

this is the most logical answer for the whole thing…if they could prove they are female with a simple cheek swab they would

i understand the thoughts of those who say they shouldn’t have to even if i disagree completely and utterly with them (its a competition which is separated by sex so of course they should prove their sex in the same way they have to prove they don’t take drugs and prove nationality and that they are good at the sport)

however if i was in the public eye and ‘accused’ of being male, i would get that cheek swab and get on with my daily mail sad face and my tv interviews and the book…there would probably be ‘should have gone to specsavers’ adverts and everything . I mean i will aim higher than specsavers, maybe M&S ‘real woman’ ad 🤔

Once again I'm impressed by the patience of so many posters on here. It's exhausting having to read them repeatedly stating the same thing, I can only imagine how exhausting it is to be the one doing the posting. Thanks to those who spend their time holding the line .

For any lurkers, it should have become apparent that there are certain people who aren't actually interested in reading links or giving any actual thought to the matter in hand. It's one thing to show up on a thread with an opinion, but to then refuse to engage with the points made and just stubbornly pretend that points haven't been clarified or evidence given is entirely another. We see you 👀

This has become the fate of linguistics.

This is the harm we keep talking about when we talk about using pronouns that people prefer.

Those supporting Khelif and Lin do so saying repeatedly, ‘she is a ‘woman’, she grew up a ‘woman’, she has competed as a ‘woman’. And all of this might well be considered true because of an error registering this person at birth.

They do not say, this is a ‘female boxer’.

It is a way to make the dishonesty palatable. We have seen this all before.

Journalist Poorna Bell gaslighting us all and chastising and shaming a friend of hers who rightly was angry about the whole thing.

In the independent paper today.

Edited to add; although not in my screenshot, it did make me slightly happy that this article was on the left of the page and right beside it was an article by Julie Burchill. Not about the debate, about king Charles but hopefully there was some irritation from Poorna having to share her column space with that 'evil' Julie who knows that men cannot become women. 😁

Also she says in the column above that her friend referring to IK as a man felt transphobic to her. Now, IK isn't trans, has said publicly they disagree with trans so how can stating the biological truth that a man is a man be transphobic Poorna??? This isn't anything to do with trans.

From the article: "people were failing to remember that there was a human being at the centre of it all".

That actually cuts to the very heart of the problem - Bell and Khelif believe there is a "human being at the centre of it all".

Whereas some of us do not have that incredibly ego-centric belief that Khelif is the centre of anything. Women are not required to be Khelif's supporting cast.

But but but evil Russians and evil mean bigoted witches on MN!

We must argue in spite of how many fingers Winston sees.

Ah but remember @NecessaryScene we women are support humans for men, we have to keep them happy above all else. That is our main job in life.

The ones that keep them happy and virtue signal like Poorna keep on side with the men you see, and get to bask in the glory of the righteousness of men punching women in the face for gold medals. #equality

The IOC could have seen Khelif as a human prior to the Olympics and they could also recognise the human needs of the women involved. They could have safeguarded Khelif's wellbeing from totally predictable social and traditional media responses, offered proper counselling and support. They chose not to. They also choose to put numerous women at significant elevated risk without regard to their wellbeing or careers.

Last time I checked you need two humans in a boxing ring to have a boxing match. And then in a tournament you fight several bouts, so that means you have multiple opponents.

Apparently only one of them has human needs. All the others are therefore subhuman and therefore doesn't need safeguarding from anything, is the conclusion you have from the whole 'but Khelif is a human' tripe.

Spot the Trojan horses.

The trans movement NEEDS to Trojan gay rights, it needs to Trojan 'sex is complicated', it needs to Trojan women's rights... It Trojans everything because if it stands without these things it falls apart.

That's why we are seeing this.

And it's relevant because the IOC decided to make the entry criteria all about what's in your passport not your biology. The IOC wanted self ID in boxing.

Exactly. The people making it "all about trans" and saying "this is not about trans, you evil wimms who only care about trans" are.... transactivists, as usual. Now, why are they so interested and invested in this? The wimms are, as ever, focused on keeping men out of women's sports and fairness and safety for women. TRAs are piggybacking on DSDs (as they always do, along with gay people) to, firstly, try and add sciencey credence to their absurdly sexist, backwards concept of "gender identity" (a secular religion based on a man's eye framing of regressive sex stereotypes). And secondly, to try to enforce self ID and remove, by force, women's right to boundaries, to say no.

T is and always has been for Trojan. It's constant, the piggybacking on everyone else's causes and previously successful social justice movements and methods of enacting social change, entryism in every place of power they can think of to try to impose their batshit anti-woman ideology on everyone from the top down, in the absence of any integrity to their movement and an ideology that is so flawed it can never stand on its own merits. And that Trojan horsing, the power moves, and the constant lying is what makes it so glaringly obvious that this is not and has never been a genuine social justice movement.

Also see DSD trojaning of 'its racist'.

Did the OP ever come back and acknowledge how wrong they'd got it, or at least that there was significant and mounting evidence for the position that these boxers are male?

If not, classic activist fly by plopping. Incredible that they still want to make a poster boy/girl out of a muslim male who publicly disapproves of trans and homesexuality.

If she's not a woman, nor is she a man. How would someone live day to day like this in life and relationship's?
She believed it and her family that she is a biological woman.

Nobody is denying it is psychologically challenging to process such a profound change in the understanding of your own body.

But that would have happened a decade ago during puberty, it would have been absolutely obvious that something wasn't right.

The answer to this conundrum isn't to cheat your way into elite sports, opening yourself up to criticism, it is to find a way to tread one's own path.

There are a few examples of elite sportspeople with DSDs, who upon discovering their condition retired from competition and handed back their medals. As an honourable person should.

Perhaps 'transphobic' is yet another of those words that no longer means what we thought it did.

The list is growing by the day.

lol at Poorna’s pearl-clutching at her friend’s’transphobia’. I will tell you who is transphobic. Imane Khelif.

Nobody is saying that Imane Khelif can’t adopt any identity they wish (thought the simpering in a flowery dress routine is clearly inauthentic). What we are saying is that given their male advantages they shouldn’t be a professional boxer in the female category.

DSDs can sometime make life complicated, as can having a difference in your biology if other types.

In cases where it's discovered later, it may be that the person finds that the facts about their sex contradicts how they identify.

IF the condition is 5-ARD then:

most identity as boys when they reach puberty. It's a rare condition so I don't know whether these boys always felt male and puberty is actually a relief. They'll live their lives like any man who has smaller genitals and has fertility issues. They may need monitoring or intervention if their testicles haven't descended because of cancer risk.

Some identify as girls and in these cases generally they'll have surgery to remove testicles, possibly genital & breast surgery if they want to, hormone treatment with oestrogen.*

Some may identify as girls and not want intervention as is their right.

It's no-one's business if they identify as women in their lives but they aren't female for sporting purposes and shouldn't qualify for women's sport.

As I say, it's such a rare condition that it'll virtually never come up outside these cluster situations where there should be scrutiny of the motivations of certain coaches and sporting bodies.

*I read a study about satisfaction with "reassignment" in these cases and they all seemed to be attracted to men - I don't know how strong the link is. Given that late identification can be correlated with poor availibility of healthcare and conservative communities where being a gay man might not be an option, there may be homophobia influencing outcomes. Complete speculation on my part.

And the protocol is that the original test results are deemed to stand legally if the athletes fail to appeal, or withdraw an appeal.

The problem with an appeal, as Semanya found out to his cost, is that while the body responsible for the initial testing is legally only able to declare the results of the test in a very general way, on appeal , which is made to an independent body, the entire testing procedure is revealed : the procedures, the tests used, and most importantly very detailed analysis of the test results. In Semanyas case this put paid to the fallacy that he was a woman with high testosterone. He was shown to have a DSD which only occurs in men.

So while most of us - if we believed we had been wrongly sexed following a test - would demand an appeal and go through with it to prove our case beyond any doubt, for some reason neither athlete , their coaches or their national sports bodies chose to do this. I wonder why not?

I sincerely hope anyone with a genetic variance is able to live their life with peace, purpose and joy.

But female sports are specifically for female people, not male people with an inborn enzyme deficiency.

And I don’t get the it’s an anti trans issue one bit. If someone presents as a woman but calls themselves trans then logically they are a biological man - India
Willoughby excepted . But neither athlete is claiming to be trans, they are claiming to be women from birth.

It’s a completely different kettle of fish.