Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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For a start, he was tested a good while ago now, had the results, had the option to appeal but dropped that appeal.

If I'm right and Khelif is being gaslit, that's easily got around. "Oh the IBA use a completely out of date definition that just works by chromosomes, some women are born XY, don't worry about it the IOC are more enlightened."

Also not convinced from one or two photos of rucked up clothing that the athlete has certain parts. Looking down and there's a bump in my trousers right now. It's just where the material's folded, I don't have anything unusual down there and have given birth twice. And if Khelif is wearing a female groin guard that could cause funny shapes too.

Perhaps I'm a hopeless optimist but I do think the athlete may not be a deliberate cheat.

Thanks, that was just the one.

Perhaps I'm a hopeless optimist but I do think the athlete may not be a deliberate cheat.

How likely do you think it is that a woman would reach her 20s without every wondering why she'd passed through puberty but never menarche as part of that?

Have we had this from Seb Coe yet?

https://x.com/itvnews/status/1822252662839996903

Have a look at the images of the Algerian Coaches etc and where they have put their hands on Khelif, and how Khelif has hugged heads to Khelif’s chest, been place on shoulders.

With all the description of the oppressiveness of the culture this person has been brought up in, the supposedly ultra conservativeness and all, how would any male treat a female in that way, and on international news streams. And how would any female allow that to happen.

Sorry. For the last week, those of us who have raised questions have been demonized, vilely vilified using the arguments that within 5 minutes of media streaming now seem like just a convenient way to silence others. Not you thirdfiddle at all. But so many have. But it cannot be both ways.

If Khelif was gaslit about Khelif’s medical condition, wouldn’t Khelif have a deep and abiding knowledge about what a female would allow and not? When I have seen a coach put a hand to Khelif’s chest at breast height, it was like seeing Semenya’s wife out a hand on Semenya’s chest in their wedding photo, it was like seeing a photo of teenaged Semenya on the beach in shorts at a school excursion, and Britney Greiner in a now public video in just shorts around a pool shooting hoops with family. These people know.

As someone upthread said, it's possible these boxers (and Semenya etc) think of themselves as some kind of special, strong masculine female. That has no bearing on whether they should compete against women who have not benefited from a male puberty.

The women's category is not for females and those who feel womany.

Imane is behaving in an unusual way for an Algerian woman. I would have expected more engrained reserve around men, from someone raised female in an Islamic country.

I came across this video from an Algerian source. It's in a mixture of French and Arabic, so not very useful if you don't speak either, but it is still interesting, I think, from a body language and presentation point of view.

Maybe it's just me and the kind of women I've hung around with in my life, but at points in this video, I think Khelif wouldn't look out of place in certain lesbian bars, if there still were such things. Khelif has quite a quiet, gentle way of speaking, which may be a leftover from being brought up female. If I overheard them speaking, I wouldn't think it was a man. And what lovely eyes

So far, the Algerian media have done a fairly good job here in presenting Khelif as a nice, friendly, down-to-earth and very talented woman that Algeria can be proud of.
I'm thinking of how proud we were of Katie Taylor in similar circumstances. The hype, but also the genuine national pride, in a country that doesn't win much.
I get it.

Then they show footage of Khelif actually boxing, and it's so at odds with the interview! Khelif looks, hits, acts, moves like a man. It's like watching the interviewee's big brother in action.

The cognitive dissonance is off the scale for me, but the wall-to-wall hype and the excitement of having a successful 'female' Algerian Olympian, must outweigh the dissonance for Algerians. Well, most of them anyway, there must be some dissenters..

Do you think that strong masculine female people allow people to have images taken with their hands on their chests? And without shirts while swimming with their school class?

That takes some kind explaing to oneself. Or more likely... they know they are male and follow male behavioural conventions.

I think the power of self-delusion can be extremely strong. I'm not familiar with the cultures in which some of them grew up, which might support that delusion.

However, I'm not saying these people don't think of themselves as male, I'm saying they might not, but that actually makes no difference to the argument at hand.

Perhaps I'm a hopeless optimist but I do think the athlete may not be a deliberate cheat

I'd love to have your faith, @thirdfiddle, and maybe I’m just old and cynical, but sadly I can’t dredge up the same optimism!

But how could they not be? There has been a question mark over this athlete's eligibility to compete since 2022.

They have done absolutely nothing to put the matter to bed. No appeals, no voluntary testing. How could you conclude anything other than deliberate cheating?

I suppose it is possible that men registered as and raised as female in their early years regard themselves as 'less than men' when they become aware that they are not 'normal' women.
I understand is that part of the reason many places with tend towards 'assigning' female in the case of genital ambiguity is because it's regarded as difficult to be a man without a penis.
But I can't swallow a line that involves the boxers have no idea. No one is putting a female in her late teens who has never had a period into a elite sports programme without a sense that something is wrong.

@TheKeatingFive I guess - if we're wondering ways that they might not know - that their team may not give them the information themselves, don't want to fill their little lady brains with irrelevant info that could distract them from their best performance.

However, the way they interact with their team doesn't seem to suggest that kind of dysfunctional relationship (nor that their team see them as female in the first place!)

I live in a MENA country, but in the relatively Westernised, liberal capital. We're generally friendly with Algeria.

The things I've heard said are:

• how are the IOC this stupid? That boxer is clearly a man.
• well, plenty of Europeans are gullible/racist so can't tell our men & women apart/perverts/woke idiots/all of the above.
• meh, yalla Algeria, if they're going to let him fight. This is hilarious, good luck to him!
• <mothers of a local Olympian female athlete I know> but if he took up 'Mariam''s sport, he'd have to come through all of us AND Mariam's grandma, & she'd kick him in the balls.

LITERALLY NO ONE BELIEVES THAT IMANE KHELIF IS FEMALE.

Not even slightly surprised at this. They must be pissing themselves at western woke bros cheering this on

To be fair, my housekeeper is his namesake, & is not a fan.

She doesn't think it's remotely funny, because she & her estranged husband are mid 20s, & she's been on the end of more than one male punch in the head so she's VERY much #nothankyou.

But generally, yeah, from what I've seen it's seen as a jolly jape & sticking one to the silly foreigners.

The 'lofted on shoulders' picture has been shared multiple times on groups I'm on - accompanied by many a PMSL type emoji.

Not sure whether this is genuine, but on Twitter there is an indication that Khelif is filing a complaint of cyber harrassment! x.com/DZFOOTBALLDZ/status/1822329125970882929

Can someone translate? Is he calling the rozzers on us?

Thomas Bach is standing down. Thank fuck.

Madame Khelif hahaha

That's good if it's finally going to end up in court.

It could have all been avoided of course if they'd just gone to CAS in the first place.

Off you fuck Tommy and don't come back.

Even in the incredibly unlikely event he tried to sue for libel, and had a test that came back xx, I'm pretty sure we're all covered under "reasonable belief"

I strongly doubt that would happen though

Quick Google (and common sense) tells me that harassment of a public figure seems to be a lot harder to prosecute than a normal person - given non-private info can be argued to be in the public interest - so good luck with that one too!

Rough translation with some paraphrasing.

After the time for sports, come the time for justice.

Having just won a gold medal at the 2024 Olympics, the boxer Imane Khelif has decided to begin a new fight, a fight for justice, dignity and honour.

Madame Khelif has filed the complaint for aggravated online harassment to Paris prosecutors.
The investigation will determine who was behind this misogynist, racist and sexist campaign, but will also have to concern itself with those who fed the online lynching.
The iniquitous harassment to which the boxing champion had been subjected will [persist?] as a great [free translation: shameful] stain on these Olympic Games.

Best efforts with some freedoms.