Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

Men don't have to wear headguards now because they were shown to increase the risk of concussion and brain injury. But because they didn't run the tests on female boxers, the women still must wear them - even when being hit on the head by greater male reach and strength.

Actually, I think headguards are banned in male boxing because they are more likely to catch on the fist and cause damage by torque fracture, where the boxer is hit so hard it spins the head round on the neck. This risk is higher than the risk of direct punches to the head, but women do not have the power to inflict such injuries, so it's safer for women to wear the headgear.

Except if they are fighting men that DO have the power to punch so hard the head turns too far on the neck, of course......

But surely the IOC are quite happy to dump boxing out of the Olympics altogether, and this is the excuse they've been looking for? The crocodile tears about not being able to find a reputable boxing organisation...

The thing is that IOC very deliberately avoided taking responsibility in this particular area by delegating the creation of policy for eligibility in women’s sport to the various regulatory bodies for each sport. And as a result, many of the sporting regulatory bodies have developed and implemented science-based eligibility criteria for their sports (including the IBA) and now it seems that IOC don’t like this development because it is at odds with their stated preference for identity-based eligibility.

It doesn’t look like the IOC wants to change their identity-based criteria for eligibility to women’s sport, and the use of science-based eligibility is spreading to more sports all the time, so will there be more of this undermining and antagonistic behaviour from the IOC towards sport regulators in the future?

This was my DP’s view - well it can’t be much of an advantage because they didn’t win all their fights.

So mediocre males who can beat some but not all highly trained female boxers should be allowed in? I’m really hoping the tide turns and all the twats spouting be kind nonsense all over my FB feed have to eat their words.

I haven’t posted anything to the contrary, partly because we don’t have all the facts, so I’m waiting to see evidence before proudly declaring either side of the argument, but also because I wouldn’t want to eat humble pie if it turned out that IK does indeed have XX chromosomes and has given birth to children. How can these other people be so sure in their wrong opinions that they’ll shout down anyone with questions about it?

I remember at the time speculating on how many racehorses might be born with the equine equivalent of a DSD each year and I came up wit the figure of 4 or 5 a year globally. Of course they then have to be good enough to go on and make it to a racecourse, but I wouldn't be surprised if there have been other similar cases as not every horse that runs is drug tested - it's random sampling in the majority of cases.

I've had arguments with TRAs before that we don't classify geldings as female horses because their testicles have been removed and we also don't classify rigs (males with one or both testicles undescended) as female either.

Racing is a perfect example of male advantage. It's completely accepted that the advantage is there and as a result females running against males in "weight for age" races (ie non-Handicaps) get a weight allowance to mitigate for this.

Thanks to the ineptitude of the IOC, any female boxer who does not conform to stereotypically "feminine" appearance will now be the subject of unkind speculation that they are genetically male.
They will have no way of disproving this.

Reduxx tweeted regarding yesterday’s IBA press conference (the press conference video is available to watch in the Reduxx tweet:

https://x.com/ReduxxMag/status/1820820467231690838

Yesterday, the International Boxing Association held a press conference addressing the concerns surrounding Algerian boxer Imane Khelif and Taiwanese boxer Lin Yu-Ting. 𝘙𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘹𝘹 has created a supercut of relevant sections.

TIMESTAMPS:
𝟬𝟬:𝟮𝟯 - Both boxers had the ability to appeal their disqualification at the Court of Arbitration for Sport, with IBA covering the majority of their legal costs.
𝟬𝟮:𝟰𝟵 - The International Olympic Committee knew that Lin and Khelif were male, but did nothing.
𝟬𝟯:𝟮𝟬 - Both the Algerian and Taiwanese Olympic Committees have refused to allow IBA to release the results of the tests.
𝟬𝟯:𝟱𝟬 - "Read between the lines."
𝟬𝟳:𝟬𝟮 - Dr. Filippatos: "The biological world does not change."
𝟭𝟬:𝟰𝟬 - A ringside examination of Lin and Khelif in 2022 prompted a blood examination to seek answers about their karyotype.
𝟭𝟭:𝟮𝟬 - "Women's category must be only women."
𝟭𝟯:𝟰𝟬 - Question from a journalist regarding why the IBA waited until 2023 to disqualify Lin and Khelif.
𝟭𝟱:𝟱𝟬 - "The safety of the boxers comes as the first and most important rule."
𝟭𝟵:𝟰𝟬 - "It's not discrimination, it's just the rules."
𝟮𝟮:𝟮𝟬 - Lin and Khelif are biologically male.
𝟮𝟯:𝟯𝟬 - The women's category must be defined by those who have a female karyotype (XX).
𝟮𝟯:𝟰𝟬 - Question from a journalist on "Russian disinformation campaigns."
𝟮𝟱:𝟬𝟱 - Lin and Khelif were reported by other boxers and coaches. They were subjected to two tests in two different countries for certainty.
𝟮𝟱:𝟮𝟬 - "There is no conspiracy theory." Again reiterating that Algeria and Taiwan will not allow the IBA to release the results of the tests.
𝟮𝟱:𝟰𝟲 - Question from a journalist asking why Lin and Khelif were only disqualified after their failed chromosomal tests rather than suspended.
𝟮𝟲:𝟯𝟮 - Question from a journalist on the "timing" of the press conference.
𝟮𝟴:𝟮𝟬 -"If the athletes want to prove they were born women, they have to do it themselves. They didn't do that."

Great, that's very useful, thank you @UtopiaPlanitia

I do suspect that they will continue along this trajectory Utopia.

Sportswomen are indeed 'the subject of unkind speculation that they are genetically male', all the time, in many sports. The point is that viewers have the right to assume that adequate checks have been taken behind the scenes to keep sporting competition fair, so it shouldn't be a question of judging by facial features etc. The IOC have driven a coach and horses through that with this 'F on the passport' nonsense.

I don't know! To punish the IOC for kicking them out maybe? It just seems extremely unlikely to me, but he's been sold it, probably because he's a political progressive who has never thought about the protection of women's sport before.

Yes @duc748 , that's my point. Apologies if I wasn't clear.

Males with DSDs are over represented in women's elite sports. That's all the proof you need that they have an advantage.

I was thinking about something I read about Khelif a few days ago, his father was against him boxing because girl. Obviously, he used his feminine wiles to talk dad round. Anyway, does anyone know if there are any 'other' Algerian women boxers? I've tried googling but the results are swamped by this guy. How unusual is it for women and girls to take this sport up over there? I'm assuming there must be some otherwise he'd have struggled to get a bout in the early days. It'd be nice if there was an Algerian woman to root for.

It boggles the mind. Maybe they were ok with it once they realised he's male? But it means a whole line of people being ok with him fighting women.

I'm suspicious of the "he's unsafe due to discrimination" line. I mean, he's literally representing his country.

@BoreOfWhabylon .. I do know that women are often subject to speculation about their bodies... but.. I did note in one of the IBA articles that they tested 5 boxers and all 5 were male... there were 3 male footballers in the Zambian team and 3 males on the podium in Rio for the 800m... I would rather we questioned everyone rather than allowed some through.

There do appear to be a few others, if you search the Paris 2024 site filtering for nations and sport it shows that Algeria sent 3 female boxers to the Games.

Alongside Imane Khelif they sent:

Roumaysa Boualam
Hadijila Khelif (no relation)

Both were beaten in the first fights (Round of 16) having been given a bye in the first round.

Right Caster Semenya has weighed in. Unfortunately, me and CS aren't speaking the same language so i don't think i'm hearing what CS actually means. I agree there should be consistency though I doubt CS would advocate for something that would have seen CS banned from the women's races

www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/06/caster-semenya-accuses-ioc-over-lack-of-gender-consistency/

https://archive.ph/a5Hv8 archive link past the paywall

All those Slavic names are Russian, eh? (I'm Eastern European on my dad's side. When I was at school, I had other kids insisting that I was Russian.)

I did think that if I was Semenya or another athlete in a similar position, I'd be a bit miffed that the boxers seem to be fine to compete when I wasn't.
I mean - Semenya was just running against women, not punching them.
There is inconsistency between sports - is it the case now that DSD XY athletes could run if they lowered testosterone?
But the boxers can have as much T as they like?

They will blame anyone they can, I saw one article in The Jewish Times saying that the Algerian Olympic team were claiming that it was a Zionist conspiracy to deny an Arab woman a medal.

"Speaking before the bout, which guaranteed that she would win at least a bronze medal, Yassine Arab, the director of the Algerian Olympic and Sports Committees, claimed Khelif had been attacked by shadowy forces.

“The Zionist lobby, they want to break the mind of Imane. But now Imane is very strong. They don’t want that a Muslim girl or Arabic girl goes higher in the level of the rank of female boxing,” he said.

“We are all here for Imane. You can see all the support of everybody from the world. All the international press associations, they support Imane.”

Algerian Olympic team blames ‘Zionist conspiracy’ for trans boxer row - The Jewish Chronicle (thejc.com)

https://www.africanews.com/2024/07/04/algerias-boxing-team-eyes-medals-at-the-paris-olympics/.

You could root for the other Kehlif, who must be having rather a time of it as Imane is so often referenced by surname alone (which I will now stop doing).[edit: I see Hadjila is out, unfortunately]

"The team will consist of two male boxers, Yugurtha Ait Bekka in the men’s lightweight category and Mourad Kadi in the men’s super-heavyweight category, as well as three female boxers: Romaissa Boualam in the women’s flyweight category, Hadjila Khelif in the women’s lightweight category, and Imane Khelif in the women’s welterweight category."

Thanks for the link. I'll have to go back and read it again as I bailed out early due to frustration with obfuscatory pronouns. But I did have a wry smile at this sentence:

'The IOC now says ultimately it is up to individual sports to decide their rules based on “robust and peer-reviewed science” with competitors excluded when research “demonstrates a consistent, unfair and disproportionate competitive advantage and/or an unpreventable risk to the safety of the athletes”.

I wonder when a passport check became 'robust and peer reviewed science?

Oh the male athlete now famous for saying that internal testicles does not mean they are not a woman?

At least Semenya is starting to be a little more honest about the fact that Semenya has balls.