Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

I’ve suddenly remembered the case of the racehorse Flamingo Girl. A filly, trained in Germany, she won a few times but after winning a race in Italy her post-race sample returned with elevated levels of testosterone. Initially thought to be a case of doping, investigations discovered that “she” in fact had internal testes - I’m assuming with the equine equivalent of 46 XY ARD.

i remember reading about it at the time and this is the original article, but I’ve just looked up the race record and it seems “she” has now been reclassified as “he” and is listed as a gelding. He has been barred from racing in Europe but has continued a career in Dubai.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/international/how-to-solve-the-problem-of-flamingo-girl-a-filly-with-male-sex-organs-akHPs1R3kHqA/

A more recent article on the story: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/flamingo-girl-begins-extraordinary-comeback-28939712#

I caught Naga on radio 5 live running a (very) short interview with (I recall) their sports editor about the ‘controversy.’

He either didn’t actually know what the ‘controversy’ was really about or was just determined to toe the IOC line. If you’d just listened to that one interview you’d be under the impression it was about two natal females who were born with ‘some sort of’ DSD.

Naga mentioned XY chromosomes but he just glossed over (pretty much ignored) it. It would have been at about 12:45 if anyone can be bothered to listen back to it. Very very poor ‘reporting’ from the Beeb.

The BBC are a disgrace. They aren't getting licence fees to push their agenda, they're supposed to serve the entire community.

I've been debating with a male American friend on FB who's convinced that the whole thing is an IBA/Russian conspiracy, and he said that Lin was tested to make the Russian conspiracy Khelif testing seem legit. He's a highly intelligent sports fan but has been completely won over by the culture war aspects that have been leveraged here. He did think that the Ross Tucker podcast was decent though, so perhaps I have a long term chance of convincing him...

One of his ‘points’ was that she couldn’t have much of a physical advantage because he “hadn’t knocked many people (women) out” in his career to date.

I wonder how many lightweight male boxers manage to achieve regular KOs, let alone women, particularly with head guards being worn (as they do at the Olympics). I suppose I could go and Google for the number, but I’d be surprised if it’s many at all.

It seems the IOC and the majority of news outlets have decided to go with 'the IBA are Russian shills', that the boxers are female with unspecified DSD, and just ignore any protest/questions with howverydareyou.

None of it makes any sense without their stupid conspiracy theory that doesn't hold up in any way under scrutiny. It's maddening disinformation.

Also the precedent it sets for the future is that self ID into the female boxing is A-OK. Fuck the IOC and their wanky, craven misogyny.

It’s so simple. If they had female XX chromosomes they would take a test and show the world. They haven’t even denied having XY chromosomes! Case closed.

This video apparently is on the Algeria Olympic Committee Instagram. It's like trolling.

x.com/salltweets/status/1820554001487905250?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

That is the risk.

I think in practice it's likely that either boxing will not be part of the next Olympics (see this note from the IOC), or a new federation will be found. Once/if that happens, I hope to god they have more sense than the IOC.

'At the moment, boxing is not on the sports programme for the Olympic Games LA28. In order to remedy this, the IOC needs to have a partner International Federation for boxing by early 2025.'

olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-statement-on-cas-decision-regarding-withdrawal-of-recognition-of-iba

It’s shocking behaviour like this from previously well-thought of, often staid institutions that feeds conspiracy theories and also culture wars - if previously reliable institutions will lie to bolster their ideological choices, then we lose faith in them and if we lose faith in their veracity it hands opportunist politicians and social commentators the ammunition to undermine them.

We need institutions in democratic countries to stop behaving in ways that are destabilising the public/political/cultural sphere and undermining public trust.

We need institutions in democratic countries to stop behaving in ways that are destabilising the public/political/cultural sphere and undermining public trust.

This, and it applies across a whole range of issues.

One could point out that athletes who use PEDs don't win every time either.

I've been debating with a male American friend on FB who's convinced that the whole thing is an IBA/Russian conspiracy, and he said that Lin was tested to make the Russian conspiracy Khelif testing seem legit.
Has he been able to tell you what the endgame is? I mean, conspiracy to gain.... what? Got to be something worth the effort.

The thing that gives me hope about the fact that the nutters are staunchly denying that they are men is that that implies that people do recognise that men fighting women in a boxing ring is Very Bad.
(Except for the incel types who are all for it, obv.)

Well, yes. We've been saying this on here for years. If those in power persistently treat people with contempt and pretend they are stupid for asking questions, or threatens them for dissent, who knows where it might end up.

Riots on the streets, eventually. Imagine.

I don't disagree. The problem is, if nobody kicks off about this and challenges it, it will just persist and continue.

We need there to be cheek swab testing of every competitor, plain and simple. The medical knowledge is there to do this less intrusively even than the drug testing - it's the will, and not the technology, that's lacking.

I think it says all we need to about the way women are seen that they make all athletes pee in cups under observation, plural times, and submit to blood tests, just to make sure nobody is getting illicit boosts to performance under the counter... and yet there is outrage at the idea that less intrusive, single-time testing should be done to ensure only female people participate in female sports.

That doesn't mean the abuse and intrusion aimed at these boxers is okay. But I am not sure what anyone was meant to do - be so kind and nice that it was ignored, and women put at risk and losing medals to males as the guaranteed outcome? This had to be challenged, and the nature of the issue meant the challenge had to be around the biological sex.

If I don’t laugh, I’ll cry. It’s ridiculous.

In the responses to that clip which states it was the training camp in miami someone is saying its fake because the signs are in English 🙄

There might be some point to IBA/Russian conspiracy theories if the IOC had used their own tests and got different results. If that had happened I could at least understand why IOC might want to discredit the IBA testing. But as we know the only 'test' the IOC have used is a passport check.

Sorry for repeating this fact to posters who already know but I think it's very easy to go off track amidst all the smoke and mirrors.

😅😅

Sometimes I worry that I’m a conspiracy theorist, and then I hear stuff like that and think phew, maybe it’s not me!

No matter what happens in this Olympics, surely Khalif won't be able to fight in any boxing association affiliated competition again because THEIR rules will exclude any XY athlete?

So what implications does that have for Khalif's career and qualifying for 2028?

I was just thinking this morning if something similar could happen in horse racing, given the weight advantage.

Well I never.

I think this maybe depends on whether the various boxing bodies come up with a new governing body to replace the IBA or not, and if they do, what that new body has as its rules.

'At the moment, boxing is not on the sports programme for the Olympic Games LA28. In order to remedy this, the IOC needs to have a partner International Federation for boxing by early 2025.'

And here we have a significant issue.

So, the IOC is searching for an organisation to be responsible for the Boxing programme. How does anyone have any confidence that the IOC will consider a boxing international organisation that will not share the IOC's inclusiveness policy?

This will be the very first time that the IOC will have sought a new organisation to take on the running of a sport's competition. I suspect that they will now start specifying that any organisation will need to 'respect' and follow their inclusion policy to be considered.

Unless pressure is brought onto the IOC, this debacle will not go away. They may even find ways to remove federations that don't follow the IOC lead and replace them where they can if there is any alternatives. Obviously, WA, FINA, UCI, and WR are safe enough I suspect, but I wonder at the rest.