Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

@MessinaBloom

You’ve been busy implying that the IBA is pushing Russian propaganda for days now.

On top of your other claims that women (the actual female kind) can exhibit T levels in the male range.

So yeah, there’s room for nuance but that’s not what you’re pushing here.

But after all this, the boxing comp continues unchanged?

@Snowypeaks

It doesn't matter because it doesn't affect the results of the chromosome tests, which showed that the boxers are male.
The IBA did not do the tests - the tests (on two separate occasions for both boxers) were done by accredited labs and the boxers accepted their accuracy at the time. So twice.
You can't know the boxers acccepted their accuracy. You also don't really know the labs were accredited. You're taking IBA at their word.*
*
The IOC is also corrupt, so presumably we should not believe anything they say about anything at all for that reason.
Well, isn't that what you're doing?*
*
The results cannot be released to the media without the permission of the boxers. The boxers and their federation have blocked publication but the test results have been leaked and the results confirmed.
It's private medical information. If the test results were leaked by the organisation, that's horrendous. And who confirmed the results? Honestly.*
*
The IOC is casting doubt on the tests because they don't want it to be widely known that the boxers are male. They consider the women's category to be a gender identity category. It is their goal to put men into women's sport. They do not regard putting male people in a boxing ring with women as problematic, but are aware that much of the world does.
That's simply extrapolation on your part.

So yeah, there’s room for nuance but that’s not what you’re pushing here.

This.

@MessinaBloom

For both Khelif and Lin, the New Delhi test – from, as IBA disclosed Monday, the independent Dr Lal PathLabs – consists of three pages. In part:
The first page provides, along with basic identifying information for each athlete and date and time of sample collection, result summary – “abnormal” – and interpretation – “chromosome analysis reveals Male karyotype.” The second page offers photographic representation of the 22 paired autosomes and then, for each athlete, further depicts an X and a Y chromosome. Page three makes plain that the lab is a “national reference lab” and, as well, accredited by CAP, the Northfield, Illinois-based College of American Pathologists, and certified by the ISO, the Swiss-based International Organization for Standardization."

TQ Anon called. They want their bonkers conspiracy theory back.

Ooh, Sabrina searches. I've made about, IDK, five posts or so in the last few days? But no, I've been busy.

They're just the wrong kind of posts, I suppose.

Ooh, again.

Grow up @MessinaBloom

If you've got an actual argument for why the results of these tests should be dismissed, try making it.

Some people will come up with all sorts of crap in order to justify males punching females in the face on live TV

IMO, the IOC should repeat the chromosomal tests.

You dole out sideways insults all the time. You're telling me to grow up? Please.

Ok so we agree then. I think you probably know what the outcome is likely to be. They aren't going to redo them so the uncertainty and plausible deniability will continue in this tournament at least.

@MessinaBloom can I clarify - are you concerned because you don't think there's any evidence of a DSD that would mean the two boxers should be barred from competition, but if that's correct, you would agree that nobody who is biologically male belongs in the women's category - so your concern is around possible great unfairness, and even cruelty, to people who may just present differently to most women, but are indeed women biologically?

Or is your issue that you believe gender, and not biological sex, should determine the sporting category?

I agree that if confidential medical reports have been leaked, that's horrendous and awful and should be dealt with seriously.

I also think that if women have been put in a boxing ring in any context with biologically male people, while ostensibly in the women's category, that's even worse. Their most basic safety is compromised.

None of these events are fair on anyone, whatever the truth of it. But the women's category in sport is not one any male person should be in.

For me it all comes down to the two boxers not pursuing appeals at CAS. An independent body, nothing to do with boxing or the IOC. If they were unfairly banned by the IBA because they somehow got the tests wrong (twice at different labs) and the boxers are indeed biological women and deprived of the opportunity of fighting, why on earth didn’t they commission their own tests and go to court and shout it from the rooftops?

The only reason I can see why they would not do this is because the test results were indeed correct and they could not prove otherwise in a court of law.

Apologies: I stated in the last thread that Ross Tucker had said in his podcast that DSD males had objected to sex testing so it was stopped.

I re-listened and he didn't say that. He did seem to say that only female athletes were previously tested (up to about 1999) and that there were some controversial cases, then testing was stopped. I don't know whether my brain was filling in bits (like 'who caused the controversy, then? Hmm?') or I heard the bit about the DSD males elsewhere, but it was not Professor Tucker who said it.

The line and the picture is the melding of genius there, Cha.

I'm still laughing. Albeit slightly hysterically.

That’s the great thing about MN.

16 since 1st August, since you ask.

‘You can't know the boxers acccepted their accuracy. You also don't really know the labs were accredited. You're taking IBA at their word.’

We know the boxers didn’t challenge the results at CAS (via full appeal). So legally they can’t dispute the test results. Whether their motivation for not appealing was ‘we know we’re men, so there’s no point we’ll lose’ or something else doesn’t change that.

If you’re convicted of a murder, and don’t challenge your conviction, you are for all legal purposes a murderer. It doesn’t matter if you privately tell yourself you’re not a murderer, or even if you are actually innocent, the world is going to treat you as a murderer.

The fact the IOC have made up some different rules doesn’t change that simple fact for me.

Regarding withdrawal of the cheek swab test and the confusion that had previously arisen due to DSDs, the’Folding like deckchairs’ chapter of Helen Joyce’s Trans is useful

I thought it was interesting that at the IBA conference they repeatedly said to read between the lines (and there is plenty of scope to do that - the fact that they didn't appeal to CAS etc) but very few journalist seems prepared to do that and go off and investigate.

It’ll make you cross though

I suspect that was because the IBA had received formal communications from the Algerian and Chinese Taipei NOCs warning it that it cannot disclose medical information.

Although the IBA medic blew that out the water with his clear statements that karyotype testing had been done and that the boxers were had a male karyotype.

Just saw this on the last thread...

Why assume I was referring to you?