Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

@SabrinaThwaite

That’s the great thing about MN.
16 since 1st August, since you ask.

You were keen on counting up my posts. I'm not sure why it matters at all, but I counted up yours as well. (I did give you the option of saying it was nonsense too.) For the month of August, over 350 posts for you. I'm really not sure why you picked on my tiny 16 posts.

Nobody is "born a woman". People are born as girls or boys.

That Dan Wolken piece strikes me as hideously patronising and bordering on racist, painting Khelif as some naive, unsophisticated third-worlder rather than the clearly sophisticated and well travelled individual evident in various images.

Yes, I agree. A "young woman from rural Algeria who has spent 48 hours in the middle of an international firestorm"

These competiitors would be excluded from athletics, swimming, cycling and rugby (possibly more but those are the only ones I know for sure) on the grounds of testosterone and having experienced male puberty but not boxing on the grounds that identity / legal passport is the only criteria on which eligibility is assessed.

I’ve come across an article by a sports journalist covering the Olympics and think it would be of interest to this thread:

’3 Wire Sports has seen the test results and a June 5, 2023 IBA letter to the IOC that says tests of Khelif, one in New Delhi, a prior test in Istanbul at the 2022 world championships, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes.”

For both Khelif and Lin, the New Delhi test – from, as IBA disclosed Monday, the independent Dr Lal PathLabs – consists of three pages. In part:

• The first page provides, along with basic identifying information for each athlete and date and time of sample collection, result summary – “abnormal” – and interpretation – “chromosome analysis reveals Male karyotype.”
• The second page offers photographic representation of the 22 paired autosomes and then, for each athlete, further depicts an X and a Y chromosome.
• Page three makes plain that the lab is a “national reference lab” and, as well, accredited by CAP, the Northfield, Illinois-based College of American Pathologists, and certified by the ISO, the Swiss-based International Organization for Standardization.‘

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

😂😂😂
Great resource!

Please explain?

I think I’ve been pretty consistent over my 10 years or so on MN?

How about you?

In theory I am also against scrutinising various fine details of anatomy to determine someone else’s sex, on the international stage.

In practice I find that the IOC AND THE ATHLETES THEMSELVES have chosen to deny reality, making it inevitable that onlookers analyse what they see.

It isn’t policing femininity, it’s observing that two athletes who look a lot like men punching women, do indeed have a q angle, knee shape, shoulder, bicep, brow, jaw and on and on that is in fact generally only found found in men.

Note no reference to length of hair or style of clothes- though that could be considered relevant in conservative Algeria.

Didn’t realise I’d re-posted something you’d already posted on the thread - that’s what I get for not wearing my glasses, soz @ArabellaScott

Mail article:

Khelif is fighting Thailand's Janjaem Suwannapheng (who was the last boxer IK fought in the 2023 championship before being disqualified) in the welterweight semi final tonight.

Lin Yu Ting is facing Esra Yildiz of Turkey in the featherweight semi final tomorrow night.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13713341/Paris-Olympics-boxing-Imane-Khelif-fight-tonight-gender-row.html?spotimmscrolltoocomments=true&spotimmhighlightimmediate=true

Thank you! My thoughts exactly.

BTW It’s 93 not 350 for the month of August, since I find accuracy rather than disinformation important.

Well, it will be 94 now.

Didn’t realise I’d re-posted something you’d already posted on the thread - that’s what I get for not wearing my glasses, soz @ArabellaScott

I think it was me first, and I used it in my response to Messina, with the bits about the testing bolded. But the more the merrier!

That is an excellent article. However I think the "forgery" element is probably something of a red herring.

In many countries, (the UK included, who don't have formal self-ID for gender issues) it is trivial to update the sex marker in a passport. No need for a forgery at all.

Which would mean any man from the UK could essentially self-ID into the women's competition with legitimate documentation.

Thanks for setting up the new thread @Ereshkigalangcleg I was at work :)

Indeed, I think he's just making the point that it's really stupid to base sex qualification on what a person has on their passport.

Aaarrgh! I really do need to wear my glasses more often 😳 🙈

Apologies Eresh

No problem Signal, I didn't want to be officious but thought it was important to link the thread!

That would be the totally convincing ironclad evidence of Khelif’s passport 🙄 That and the mendacious mistaken media reports about Khelif being a “biological woman” (example - Sky’s ridiculous article).

It’s all seeming like a repeat of the Semenya debacle where we were told that she’d grown up as a girl, and was now just a woman with a bit of extra testosterone.

Apologies Eresh

No worries at all! These threads are so fast moving, it's hard to keep up with them myself tbh

It’s all seeming like a repeat of the Semenya debacle where we were told that she’d grown up as a girl, and was now just a woman with a bit of extra testosterone.

When Semenya appears to have now given an interview entitled "my testicles don't make me less of a woman"

It's disgraceful that these fights are still going ahead. A new low for the IOC. They know, and the world now knows, that they have XY fighters in the ring with women, and they don't care.

And astonishingly, there seem to be people willing to agree that a person with testicles is a woman.

We are looking at this problem, when it boils down:

'These competiitors would be excluded from athletics, swimming, cycling and rugby (possibly more but those are the only ones I know for sure) on the grounds of testosterone and having experienced male puberty but not boxing on the grounds that identity / legal passport is the only criteria on which eligibility is assessed.'

Olympic boxing eligibility is based on self ID.

Any male wiith an F on his passport is eligible for women's boxing.

This is not okay.

I don't really understand what people who say Khelif is a woman are thinking in all this? How does an actual woman fail a sex test unless the test is wrong - either conducted incorrectly or with an incorrect reference range? Is anyone explicitly saying this? Because that's the only logical position.

The naysayers mostly seem to have given up trying to make excuses or spread misinformation about this on Mumsnet, bar the occasional drive by "you're all mean" post.