Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

I'm very puzzled by the 'how can you be so mean to these nice ladies?' argument.

I think anyone who has given this more than a cursory glance must be clear by now that these are people with male bodies (whether you think that makes them men is a different discussion (although IT BLOODY DOES)) who were genuinely incorrectly assigned female at birth (never thought I'd write that sentence!) due to being born with ambiguous genitalia.

finding out that they were actually male must have been extremely traumatic. I get that. But they would have found out 10 years ago now. They have had a lot of time to come to terms with this.

and women's sport is not a consolation prize for men who have been dealt a shitty hand in life. except apparently in Mark Adam's and Thomas Bach's world it is. Sexist arseholes.

If this really is a massive conspiracy by the IBA/Russians, surely getting some non-accredited dodgy lab to do the tests would mean their cunning plan falls at the first hurdle. All the boxers have to do is say that the tests were done by a non-accredited lab so the results don't count. No need to go to CAS etc. Why doesn't the IOC now just say the labs were not accredited so the results are null & void? Why are the boxers national Olympic committees refusing the release of the info if all they need to say is the labs were unaccredited?

You're generally correct here. I don't think bio males belong in the boxing ring with females, so anyone trying to take me out of context there can put that to rest. (And that's sex, not gender.)

While there is general murkiness around the organisation and/or tests of the 2 boxers, I can't get on board with the dismantling of every part of their physical appearance and intimate details of their sexual organs. It sits uneasily with me for many reasons, and I don't apologise for that.

Thank you for a reasoned response.

Because it’s easy to check that the labs are suitably accredited.

Journalist Alan Abrahamson has seen the lab reports and confirmed the labs used.

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

Well of course.

So why aren't they?

The tests are cheek swabs, blood tests and urine dip sticks. Genitals only come into it because someone has to watch them pee in a cup (to ensure the sample doesn’t get switched).

All athletes have to comply to these tests, not just athletes with DSDs.

@SabrinaThwaite

That’s the great thing about MN.

16 since 1st August, since you ask.

The asking was rhetoric, but thanks for counting, I guess? So I was out by just 11 posts?

How many posts have you made since then? You're fairly prolific.

I get that under normal circumstances. Anyone would.

But when people are deciding on arbitrary criteria to determine sex, resulting in women getting a legally sanctioned battering, the minutiae of what constitutes that criteria absolutely needs addressing.

The criteria is an F on the passport. Without explaining what that describes it's completely meaningless.

The sex of a person is determined by chromosomes, but now, with DSDs apparently chromosomes don't count.

Discussing what does count is not just logical, it's vital.

It's not personal.

I agree that much of this is unseemly.

But the situation has been entirely created by the IOC. Their refusal to take simple measures to clear this up means that people will naturally voice their suspicions.

It's easy to forget that there's a lot at stake here. If these individuals are men, most decent people do not want to see them fighting women in the name of sport. Women's safety, opportunities and dignity do matter to many of us.

Sorry caller, what’s your point?

Mark Adams is a lot of a prick, isn't he?

Yes he is.

I think each and every callous bastard responsible for allowing MVAW to become sport and entertainment should themselves volunteer to be repeatedly punched in the head by a male boxer, one who is unfairly, dangerously and significantly stronger than they are, with the whole world watching. See how they like the taste of their own medicine.

@Maaate

Just saw this on the last thread..
Why assume I was referring to you?

A few posts earlier, I had a number of posters riled up due to the fact I said the IBA was corrupt. Your post was directly after those posts.

I do also object to the authoritarianism in being told that I can't see 2 men and say 'I see 2 men' (NOT talking about anyone on this thread, that's the IOC's stance). These men are clearly men.

I'm not someone who insists you can always tell. but in this case I really, really can. Yes I believe the tests, but I also believe my own bloody eyes. Those chaps are chaps.

@SabrinaThwaite

Sorry caller, what’s your point?

You counted my posts since the start of August (11) like it was some kind of gotcha. Do you want to count your own or shall I?

Or you could admit it was pointless whataboutism.

But the situation has been entirely created by the IOC. Their refusal to take simple measures to clear this up means that people will naturally voice their suspicions.

It's easy to forget that there's a lot at stake here. If these individuals are men, most decent people do not want to see them fighting women in the name of sport. Women's safety, opportunities and dignity do matter to many of us.

Yes, exactly. I find the cheering and gaslighting that this is a victory for women absolutely fucking grotesque.

The great thing about MN is that you can look at a history of posts and consider if there is a pattern of whataboutism.

And MN even gives you a post count.

On the Russian boxer conspiracy theory, let's look at the timing.

From the latest IBA release https://www.iba.sport/news/iba-clarifies-the-facts-the-letter-to-the-ioc-regarding-two-ineligible-boxers-was-sent-and-acknowledged:

- At the next IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships 2023 in New Delhi, Khelif and Lin were tested following their consent again before their first fights. Blood sample collection was made on 17 March 2023. Dr Lal PathLabs from New Delhi issued its report on 23 March 2023. The findings were absolutely identical to the first test results.

- On 24 March 2023, IBA Secretary General & CEO at the time, George Yerolimpos, informed both Khelif and Lin about their exclusion from the Championships for not meeting the eligibility criteria. The athletes received a copy of their testing and were informed about the possibility of appealing to the CAS within 21 days.

The match between Azaliia Amineva (of Russia) and Imane Khelif was on the 21st March 2023 according to this schedule: https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/SESSION-12-A.pdf

So the timeline for Khelif is:

• 17th March - blood sample collected from Khelif and sent to lab
• 21st March - Khelif fights Russian boxer Amineva and wins
• 23rd March - lab reports that Khelif has XY karyotype
• 24th March - Khelif disqualified from the event for failing eligibility criteria

The sneakiest part of this of course is on the 21st March when the IBA officials travelled back in time not just to four days ago to ask their past selves to collect a blood sample for sex testing, but they also rigged up their time machine to shoot all the way back to 2022 and fly over to Istanbul to do the same. Amazing really.

Yes ... and your posts tell me you aren't keen to do it.

Yes, fuck the IOC!

I’ve said it a million times but if athletes proposing to compete in the female category were sex tested once early in their careers we could avoid talking about individuals entirely because it would be settled long before they are on the world stage/in the glare of the media.

Fuck the IOC for throwing these athletes to the wolves (and fuck the athletes for not EITHER accepting their failed sex verification test and moving aside entirely OR taking a challenge to the test results to the Court of Arbitration for Sports. But they are minor players in this shitshow compared to the IOC).

You aren’t making any sense.

I think it's good to see some of the propaganda pieces on this thread too.

Here's Dan Wolken in this breathtakingly biased article in USA Today:

"There is no doubt that the next time we do this in Los Angeles, Olympic boxing will look different than it did on Saturday: A young woman from rural Algeriaa^ who has spent 48 hours in the middle of an international firestormm^, a ravenous media screaming questions as she walked past being shielded by her coaches, sobbing visibly after she won an important fight, and an Olympic delegation from the country of the loser suggesting in the most diplomatic way possible they didn’t believe any of this was legitimate..."

"Despite what is now ironclad evidence that Khelif was born a woman in Algeria, has lived as a woman and knows nothing about herself other than being a woman, enough of the world is now convinced she doesn’t belong at the Olympics that it is impossible for anyone to leave here a winner."

Where is this "ironclad evidence" he speaks of?

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/dan-wolken/2024/08/03/imane-khelif-olympics-womens-boxing/74660033007/

Yes, thank you for laying it out so clearly on this thread.

That Dan Wolken piece strikes me as hideously patronising and bordering on racist, painting Khelif as some naive, unsophisticated third-worlder rather than the clearly sophisticated and well travelled individual evident in various images.

The IOC have let women athletes down during the Paris ‘24 Olympics! I only hope this whole shit show is sorted over the next 4 years, otherwise it will be an even bigger shit show and many elite women athletes will be cheated out of their rightful medals!