Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

That got messed up too by autoformatting. It seems to be the presence of a number of underscores.

I'm catching up on threads; has the Heretics interview with Emma Hilton been shared on the aibu thread?

x.com/andrewgold_ok/status/1821608312489832888?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

yes

👍

The bbc seems to be very much “oh dear, we can ignore this no longer” (after spending the best part of a fortnight doing just that).

@Helleofabore "felt convinced that these male boxers could be female because a specialist declared that a woman came in to see him the other day and was tested to have male chromosomes..."

While reading up on something or other in this area, I came across a woman athlete, who is one of the very, ver, very few that would fit this description:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Jos%C3%A9_Mart%C3%ADnez-Pati%C3%B1o
She was discovered to have XY chromosomes, but subsequently found to have no advantage of a male puberty nor male-level testosteron. She fought to be reinstated, and competed for some more years. Despite her male chromosomes, she has female looks (facial and bodily), and has lived as a woman all her life. Her condition is either CAIS or PAIS.

There is a clear difference between Martinez and the athletes currently under discussion.

yes.

If there was a chance that these male athletes had no pubertal advantage, I am sure that they would be appealing. I am very glad that Martinez fought and was reinstated.

The BBC might think that.

I will comment that taking the silvers would in no way mollify me. I regard those as displacing women from silver medal podium finishes with a ripple effect the whole way down to the women they displaced in their national teams and before.

The IOC told us this would happen when the introduced the latest inclusion over fairness, it was largely ignored and unchallenged.

The IOC told us this would happen when they issued guidelines to journalists not to discuss gender nor to describe competitors as born male, this was also largely ignored and not challenged.

They told us again when they issued the eligibility rules for boxing without any reference to biology or levels of testosterone, not following the lead of athletics, swimming, cycling et al... and still the majority remained silent.

The football competition started with 2 significant players who openly admit they are XY with high levels of testosterone but are legally female and their opposition hoped that the weakness of the rest of their team would be enough to ensure they didn't progress out of the group stages... so journalists, commentators and officials remained silent.

Now, journalists are starting to say.. we cannot remain silent, when women have been screaming about this but pushed to the side, silenced, lied to.

This is still not the full story! I don't believe we will ever know how many XY competitors there were in the female category of the historic 50/50 male / female Olympic games of 2024.

The phrase.... never again, rings hollow... but is this the moment where we can stand up and say 'Never Again'... I don't hold that hope... the IOC are sticking to their eligibility criteria that does not require competitors in the female category to be XY or to have female range testosterone levels.

I will comment that taking the silvers would in no way mollify me. I regard those as displacing women from silver medal podium finishes with a ripple effect the whole way down to the women they displaced in their national teams and before.

Exactly this.

I suspect that if this happens there will be many people saying, "See, they're definitely women. If they were men they would have won."

Do you have a source for the basis on which Martinez was found to have no advantage? I read the article about Martinez in the Lancet, where she writes that she has no benefit from testosterone but doesn't elaborate or state which condition she has. (The Lancet is a scientific journal but this article is a personal account written by Martinez.) She expresses support for the removal of chromosome testing for sports - but the fairest thing would be to keep chromosome testing, and in the case of XY 'women', determine the nature of their DSD and whether their bodies are receptive to testosterone, with the caveat that we might not know in the case of CAIS whether there is still an advantage despite no sensitivity to testosterone.

She ends by saying 'I have helped other sportswomen with genetic variance participate without fear, however, and my experience has made me stronger; having had my womanliness tested—literally and figuratively—I suspect I have a surer sense of my femininity than many women.' I feel like I've heard that last line before.

It's unfortunate, but because of the history of media obscurity, I approach everything concerning DSDs in sports with scepticism.

Just on the Independent again, judging from my FB feed, they are practically wetting themselves at the forthcoming glorious triumph of Khelif. The whole world is against her, dontcha know? Luckily a few brave souls are prepared to stick up for her. 🙄

I know this is awful, but a part of me hopes that they both go on to win gold because it will force the conversation and underline the point.

As soon as a woman beats them, it will remove a lot of the pressure and all the fingers will be pointed at the women they beat and they'll be dismissed as poor losers, substandard boxers blah blah.

By having both boxers win the gold medal it removes any potential confusion, removes any possible excuses - and makes the point we're trying to make so much more emphatic.

Absolutely shit for the women who had to fight them though, and I'm desperately sorry it has come to this.

Also worth mentioning that for me, it doesn't matter where these male boxers finish - women have lost out. It's just that certain parties are extremely good at obfuscating and twisting reality, and I think having a much clearer argument will help people realise that it's fucking dangerous having boxers with a biological advantage in the ring with women.

I see that Taiwan has sent its finest misogynists over to Twitter to complain about women speaking out

I was astonished to see mainstream media universally supporting the male boxers!

Gosh Id like to have 5 minutes alone with Tim Davie.😡

Yeah dont ask for sympathy when China comes knocking ;)

Gross misogyny is all the rage in 2024

😡

Or more crucially, how much money the American sponsors paid to ensure this happened?
And who specifically is pulling the strings?

Or the extent journalism is enthralled to them
Viner needs to make amends and do some investigative journalism of the kind in the Panama Papers.

The anger in the IOC response is so indicative of guilty defensiveness.
We have all seen the dynamic in abusive relationships.

That looks like the double tap, rather than a 'thank you' or 'I'm so happy I'm hugging myself'.

CaveMum · Today 10:07

^Oh my god, the BBC have written an intelligent article that actually sets out the case critically with very little woo 😱🥳°

It is very informative, true, but it leaves the impression that they could very well be the XY types, who are not testosterone producers.

Just listened to some of the IOC conference. Some good questions from journalists, especially Oliver Brown from the Telegraph who raised the issue of safety and fairness and how the IOC guidelines prioritise inclusivity over this. An Australian journalist also asked if the IOC would be reviewing their guidelines in light of all this. Woeful response from Thomas Bach. Basically said these two boxers are women so they are allowed participate in women's sports the science isn't clear, sex testing isn't reliable blah blah. He sounded irritated. They know this issue isn't going to go away.

Wish someone would aggressively pursue the "sex testing isn't reliable" claim.

I wonder if the boxers realize this and will throw their matches.