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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2024 11:25

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
84
ChateauMargaux · 08/08/2024 18:19

@Ereshkigalangcleg ... the facebook link is the video... the still was my screen grab.

@TheKeatingFive I am pretty suspicious of the Carini apology and I think I saw an earlier report that Kellie H has said she would refuse to fight an XY boxer.. it seems that this statement now only appears on one Twitter account and has been called into question but not refuted by Kellie H. Based on, what I perceive to be silencing, all round, I suspect she did mean it as a gesture of defiance.

I wonder if we will ever hear the truth.

Thank you Nicola Adams who has not been silent and sorry to all of the other women who are afraid to speak.

OuterSpaceCadet · 08/08/2024 18:26

spannasaurus · 08/08/2024 17:26

I was just reading the Daley Thompson telegraph article and they mentioned that the Olympic Portrayal guide stated that the phrase 'born male' should not be used as it is dehumanising. If that's the case why are the IOC constantly dehumanising Khelif and Lin by saying they are born female.

It's so fascinating how, despite on the surface this not being about trans, supporters of the IOC's position behave in precisely the same way as supporters of trans ideology (illogical, male -centric arguments; obfuscation of facts; appropriation of racial struggles; gaslighting; playing the victim whilst in position of power etc).

ChateauMargaux · 08/08/2024 18:29

Delphin · 08/08/2024 17:52

I think this is the original video of Kellie's gesture on Twix:
https://x.com/SageListener/status/1821509716494942253

That is Esra Yildiz, who lost to Yin Lu-ting

DuesToTheDirt · 08/08/2024 18:36

OuterSpaceCadet · 08/08/2024 18:26

It's so fascinating how, despite on the surface this not being about trans, supporters of the IOC's position behave in precisely the same way as supporters of trans ideology (illogical, male -centric arguments; obfuscation of facts; appropriation of racial struggles; gaslighting; playing the victim whilst in position of power etc).

Yes, very much so.

annejumps · 08/08/2024 18:44

DuesToTheDirt · 08/08/2024 18:36

Yes, very much so.

The common denominator of course being that men benefit.

Mollyollydolly · 08/08/2024 18:55

That YouTube video is grim. And of course they are all lads together. Mark Adams has worked at BBC, probably ITV too, they'll all know each other.

duc748 · 08/08/2024 19:00

A week or so ago, nobody had heard of Mark Adams. In such a short space of time, he's managed to show himself as a shit of the first order.

LiveInTheLandAndDoGood · 08/08/2024 19:03

So I talked earlier in this thread about arguing with an American friend on Facebook about the boxers. And since then FB has been shoving countless FB posts at me about Khelif.

Nearly all of them are supportive of Khelif and claiming that he is really a woman, without any understanding of DSDs. They look like engagement farming tbh, but I've been shocked at the huge scale of the operation. I've never seen anything like it. (I've just blocked them all as I'm hoping that downgrades them on the algorithm). Anyone else getting FB posts on this?

duc748 · 08/08/2024 19:06

Yes, lots. Many of them "only people who follow this account can comment".

Not that that's necessarily wrong, but still... I hadn't thought to bother blocking them, but it's not a bad idea.

spannasaurus · 08/08/2024 19:07

Are there many posts about Lin on FB or it all Khelif?

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 08/08/2024 19:11

I'm getting some with both featured but it is mostly khelif. That does make some sense as khelif was the one who beat the Russian and that is being used to discredit the testing.

Helleofabore · 08/08/2024 19:12

Dr Hilton on Andrew Gold now. Obviously it should be available after it is finished. Hopefully on that link.

Info on DSDs, the history of the IOC and IBA fall out and lots of other info.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/_9rynD9KlU0?feature=shared

FlippinFumin · 08/08/2024 19:16

I heard a new one today. Apparently Angela had a nose job two weeks before the Olympics and that is why her nose broke so easily. Nothing to do with Khelif punching harder because male. I mean that is what is important to a woman athlete, that her nose looks perky for the Olympics. Jesus the bloody dissonance, she is literally going to be punched in the face, that is her job. But it should have been by other women not some inadequate man. It did lead to a good conversation though. I may have just made him think about what he was saying.

Mmmnotsure · 08/08/2024 19:32

On the grounds that one should always read both sides of the argument, this from Wired which some algorithm decided to send along. Caring nothing for my blood pressure:

Paolo Armelli
Science
Aug 1, 2024 4:30 PM
The Shameful Controversy Over Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif
Imane Khelif has always defined herself as a woman, and has every right to compete—no matter what J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk have to say about it.

picture alliance/Getty Images

This story was originally published in WIRED Italia and has been translated from Italian.
Algerian boxer Imane Khelif won her first match of the 2024 Paris Olympics when her opponent, Angela Carini of Italy, quit after taking several blows to the face in the opening seconds of the bout. The victory only fueled the misguided controversy around Khelif, who has been targeted by critics who have misgendered her throughout the Games.

Born in 1999 in Tiaret, Algeria, Khelif has been boxing since she was a child and has always competed in women's categories. In her career, she competed in the Women's World Boxing Championships in New Delhi in 2018 (finishing in 17th place), then competed in Russia the following year. She competed in the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games, reaching all the way to the quarterfinals, and she finished second in the 2022 Women's World Championships in Istanbul.

Everything seemed to be running smoothly until the 2023 World Cup, organized by the International Boxing Association. The Russia-led IBA, which is not recognized by the International Olympic Committee, disqualified Khelif after a gender eligibility test allegedly found she has XY chromosomes. IBA president Umar Kremlev has said that both Khelif and Taiwanese boxer Lin Yu-ting, who allegedly had a similar test result, “were trying to deceive their colleagues and pretend to be women.” Khelif has contested the allegations.

The Olympics Controversy
Both Khelif and Lin were admitted to Olympic boxing competitions. Admission rules in this case are handled by the so-called Boxing Unit, which has ensured that all athletes participating in the Games' boxing tournament comply with the rules of eligibility and registration for the competition as well as all medical regulations, which also includes the appropriate demonstration of medical certificates stamped and verified to at least three months before the start of the competitions.

“These boxers are completely eligible. They are women on their passports, they are women who have competed in the Tokyo Olympics and have been competing for many years, I think we all have a responsibility to tone it down and not turn it into a witch hunt,” said IOC spokesperson Mark Adams, at a news conference on Tuesday.

Still, prominent figures on social media decried Khelif's participation in the Games. X owner Elon Musk amplified a tweet from swimmer Riley Gaines that “men don't belong in women's sports,” while author J.K. Rowling falsely referred to Khelif as “a male who’s knows he’s protected by a misogynist sporting establishment enjoying the distress of a woman he’s just punched in the head.”
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The fact is that Khelif is participating in the Games because she is allowed to by the rules, and has passed the IOC's standards. “The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision,” said the Boxing Unit and IOC in a statement Thursday, referring to the IBA ban. “[It] was taken without any proper procedure—especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years. Such an approach is contrary to good governance.”

The controversies of the past few days took serious issues such as hyperandrogynism—the excessive production of testosterone by female bodies—and intersexuality, in which someone is born with sex characteristics that don't fit neatly into traditional definitions of male and female, and debased them. They then further poisoned an already very sensitive debate around transgender women's participation in the Olympics and sports competitions in general.

Beyond everything, however, the fact remains that Imane Khelif has always defined herself as a woman and the IOC is allowing her participate in the Olympics as such. Even in the face of assaultive public opinion, there is nothing to add.

Le persone transgender possono competere alle Olimpiadi?

L'inclusione di atleti e atlete transgender nelle gare sportive è da sempre oggetto di dibattiti. Ecco le regole dei giochi di Parigi

https://www.wired.it/article/olimpiadi-persone-transgender-gare/

INeedAPensieve · 08/08/2024 19:35

duc748 · 08/08/2024 19:00

A week or so ago, nobody had heard of Mark Adams. In such a short space of time, he's managed to show himself as a shit of the first order.

And apparently also Keir Starmer's best man. That was an interesting revelation.

lcakethereforeIam · 08/08/2024 19:51

There's that saying about being judged by the company you keep.

Mollyollydolly · 08/08/2024 19:52

https://x.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1821617277399081338

New Sex Matters briefing about the boxing row just dropped on YouTube.

x.com

https://x.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1821617277399081338

biddyboo · 08/08/2024 19:55

The guardian has published an article quoting Sharon Davies. It is quite good and talks about the IOC's problematic history on this issue. I'm amazed www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/08/sharron-davies-imane-khelif-lin-yu-ting-paris-2024-olympics-boxing?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1723141750

DuesToTheDirt · 08/08/2024 20:02

@Mmmnotsure yes I just read that one. Infuriating. Passports and other irrelevant nonsense, like "Imane Khelif has always defined herself as a woman, and has every right to compete—no matter what J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk have to say about it." BTW I wonder about "always defined herself as a woman". I wonder if, like Caster Semanya, this isn't really true.

"The eldest of six sisters and one brother, she grew up in Ain Mesbah, a rural village where traditionally only boys would play outside, and girls would rarely leave their homes.
Imane’s sporting talent was discovered by a local boxing coach as she was playing football in the street with boys. The coach invited her to train at a sports centre, about 10km from her home village."

Doesn't add up, does it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5442g3vxlo

Imane Khalif stares forward wearing a boxing vest

Olympic boxer Imane Khelif’s uncle describes her tough upbringing

The uncle of boxer Imane Khelif, whose Olympics has been hit by a gender eligibility row, says she's faced "bullying".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5442g3vxlo

CorruptedCauldron · 08/08/2024 20:03

Wow. Thank you Sharron Davies. 💐 This is a positive step for the Guardian.

Edited to say this is in response to the link from@biddyboo

Shortshriftandlethal · 08/08/2024 20:19

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 08/08/2024 19:11

I'm getting some with both featured but it is mostly khelif. That does make some sense as khelif was the one who beat the Russian and that is being used to discredit the testing.

That will be because focussing on Khleif alone can feed into current narratives around Muslims/Islamophobia/Israel - Gaza and so on. Khelif fits into the current polarisation narratives perfectly - including 'Trans Rights', 'Gender Inclusion' 'Russia -Ukraine' and so on.

Shortshriftandlethal · 08/08/2024 20:23

DuesToTheDirt · 08/08/2024 20:02

@Mmmnotsure yes I just read that one. Infuriating. Passports and other irrelevant nonsense, like "Imane Khelif has always defined herself as a woman, and has every right to compete—no matter what J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk have to say about it." BTW I wonder about "always defined herself as a woman". I wonder if, like Caster Semanya, this isn't really true.

"The eldest of six sisters and one brother, she grew up in Ain Mesbah, a rural village where traditionally only boys would play outside, and girls would rarely leave their homes.
Imane’s sporting talent was discovered by a local boxing coach as she was playing football in the street with boys. The coach invited her to train at a sports centre, about 10km from her home village."

Doesn't add up, does it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5442g3vxlo

It is the just same turn of events and narrative sequence as Caster Semenya......played with the boys, rejected girly things from a young age......

Mmmnotsure · 08/08/2024 20:26

@DuesToTheDirt @Shortshriftandlethal

"played with the boys, rejected girly things from a young age......"

So, umm, doesn't that make them a boy then, nowadays?

annejumps · 08/08/2024 20:28

LiveInTheLandAndDoGood · 08/08/2024 19:03

So I talked earlier in this thread about arguing with an American friend on Facebook about the boxers. And since then FB has been shoving countless FB posts at me about Khelif.

Nearly all of them are supportive of Khelif and claiming that he is really a woman, without any understanding of DSDs. They look like engagement farming tbh, but I've been shocked at the huge scale of the operation. I've never seen anything like it. (I've just blocked them all as I'm hoping that downgrades them on the algorithm). Anyone else getting FB posts on this?

Almost as soon as this became a story I suddenly was seeing a ton of authoritarive-sounding posts from people I didn't follow (and some I did) making declarations about IK being an XY woman.

annejumps · 08/08/2024 20:30

Mmmnotsure · 08/08/2024 20:26

@DuesToTheDirt @Shortshriftandlethal

"played with the boys, rejected girly things from a young age......"

So, umm, doesn't that make them a boy then, nowadays?

Oh, well, you know........ trails off

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