Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

Actually , that's not quite correct. We know about Khelif and Lin because REDUXX found out that a) they had been disqualified for not meeting IBA eligibility criteria for the women's category, (discovered through testing to have have XY chromosomes) and b) they had been cleared to compete in the women's boxing category of the Olympics by the IOC.

Didn't Spain enter an entire able bodied team for wheelchair basketball once? State sponsored cheating has a long and tawdry history.

Munich 1972: 1280 (presumed female) athletes tested, 3 males found. 3/1280

Montreal: 4/1800
LA: 6/2500
Barcelona: 6/2406
Atlanta: 8/3387.

Testing ceased.
Sydney? Athens? Beijing? London? Who knows? But it won’t be zero. I have my suspicions and I bet their rivals did too.

Rio? At least 3. How many more?
Tokyo? Several. Including the boxers, successfully flying under the radar. But I bet their rivals suspected but couldn’t say anything.

The Olympics is littered with men in women’s sport. Of those males found I listed above, it won’t be all of them and we have no idea what sports they were in and what medals they may have won.

At the moment the only way it can come to the attention that males are in women’s sport is by people paying attention and having an avenue to raise that concern. The only people who don’t want this to happen are the people who don’t care that men are in women’s sport. If people didn’t want this to happen and also didn’t want men in women’s sport then they would demand mandatory sex screening. If people also don’t want mandatory sex screening then they are championing mixed sex sport and the end of women’s sport.

A return to sex passports is the obvious solution but before we get to that we need the IOC to return to sex categories and abolish gender identity categories.
Unless that happens, there will be a strong incentive for individual countries' sports governing bodies and some world sports governing bodies to allow men in women's sports. Especially women's team sports because they gain an advantage and it's less obvious that the athletes are men. Especially if both sides have men in them.

It was supposedly a team of athletes with SEN, but basically, yes.

@Snowypeaks you’re quite right, sorry. It feels like weeks ago, not days.

However, presumably when concerns were raised with the IBA, coaches were using the evidence of their eyes which led them to question whether something needed to be investigated.

We can’t be told not to look and see because it’s unkind.

Here's the Daley Thompson article in the Telegraph

https://archive.ph/fBlpa bypass the paywall, ladies. Form an orderly queue.

www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/08/daley-thompson-interview-ioc-defend-womens-sport/

It might well be distasteful to have speculation on individuals.

This is ALL on the IOC and those who would knowingly cheat.

To say otherwise is too close to the MRA / TRA trope that women don't deserve rights when they don't ask in the right way.

All of our rights are granted and taken at the behest of men and male institutions. That much is becoming clearer and clearer. Forgive women for lack of decorum in response.

Yes, the coaches and competitors raised concerns which triggered the testing. However they didn't raise concerns on social media and they were going on a lot more than images, which can be manipulated.

Didn't Spain enter an entire able bodied team for wheelchair basketball once? State sponsored cheating has a long and tawdry history.

Yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CheatingatttheParalympiccGames

Hitting someone on the back of the head is an illegal move in boxing. Illegal and dangerous. Lin should have been disqualified, yet got away with it.

So not only was this boxer previously disqualified for failing a sex test, they are also fighting dirty.

People need to stop scolding women who are calling this out. We don’t care if a boxer looks unfeminine. So what? The only thing that matters is their sex. Not their ‘legal’ sex, their biological sex.

L and K may have been raised as girls, have F on their passports and use she/her pronouns. Fine. But their eligibility to fight women has been called in to question. And if they have the 46-XY 5-ARD disorder of sex development, they are biological males who were incorrectly assigned female at birth and absolutely shouldn’t be fighting women. They could kill or seriously hurt women. But apparently, women’s safety is less important than being kind to people with DSDs.

Nobody wants to be speculating over any individual’s genitalia or chromosomes. The fair and dignified solution for all is a simple swab test to confirm their sex. Not just for those competitors where there’s a question mark over their sex, but for every single athlete.

Men and women should all undergo this test, then no individual is singled out or humiliated. It’s not difficult and it shouldn’t be a big deal.

The percentage of men each time is fairly consistent. Don't know if that means anything.

Sorry to see another drive-by last night. Some people have an odd sense of priorities. It's any opportunity to get those climbing boots on and head for the high moral ground for some, isn't it?

Yes it’s a rate of 1 in 400-450 consistently.

But 'they' did start it, didn't they?

This thread is pointing out the blatant wrongness of what 'they started', like the Rio 2016 Olympics 'Women's' 800m, and discussing our concerns about what appear to be similarly unfair cases in the current Olympics.
And we're going to keep doing it, in what we consider to be a reasonable way, with some valuable expert input, anger, considerable sympathy for the individuals involved, armchair genetics, occasional exasperation, constructive suggestions... a wide-ranging and largely self-levelling discussion.

Eventually the doubts about Caster Semenya were proven correct. This discussion will keep a similar focus on Khelif, Lin et al until the unfairness of males in female sports is acknowledged and ended.

Not quite - it was basketball for athletes with an intellectual impairment. Spain won the gold and was then disqualified.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_ID_at_the_2000_Summer_Paralympics

Presumably the Rio situation would have continued if it hadn’t been challenged.

And there were lots of scolds claiming racism and genital fascism then, too.

I would anticipate that the proportion will climb now that the IOC had demonstrated such a permissive acceptance and indifference to testing.

That’s the worry - the IOC is setting a precedent here.

Yep - the specific DSDs which give male advantage are quite rare, much easier to just change a passport. If that's all you need.....

Although I'm still not quite sure how the IOC are going to fudge the drug testing when these boxers win.

Good to see Oliver Brown of the Torygraph is getting it - interview with Daley Thomson is clear and he’s put this on X.

’XX: now quite the symbol of these Games’

What I find more interesting than the ways sporting bodies attempt to fudge the rules is the way mainstream media outlets are immediately on board with the approved talking points. Even as they acknowledge uncertainty, ambiguity, complicatedness, etc. they confidently state, as in this example, that the boxers are female. I know this isn't news to users here, I just find it interesting. I recall the NYT did similarly in 2016 with Semenya. And at the time, unthinkingly assuming I could trust the NYT, I figured this was a female athlete with high testosterone. Etc.

They’ll be expecting high T levels, so they’ll spin it as ’women with naturally high T’ if challenged.

Or claim there were no issues and cite athletes’ privacy for #NoDebate.