Thread 3: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

To continue the discussion.

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

And there were lots of scolds claiming racism and genital fascism then, too.

People still do, if you started an AIBU about Caster Semenya you would get this now.

Eventually the doubts about Caster Semenya were proven correct. This discussion will keep a similar focus on Khelif, Lin et al until the unfairness of males in female sports is acknowledged and ended.

Absolutely. But I'd suggest that the fact that Caster is definitely male may have been 'proven' correct, but I'm not at all sure that it's clear in the mind of Joe and Josephine Public. But I guess that's mostly the fault of the likes of the BBC, who are so reluctant to call a spade a spade. And continue to be so.

Not only that but it's not as though the medals have been stripped, and Semenya feels free to acknowledge having testes. Because women's sports don't really matter that much, after all, when it comes to fairness for women.

Consistent over a period of time when the rules excluded men and thorough tests were conducted to enforce the rules.

Since then, one of those limits has been weakened and the other eliminated. So I'd expect higher now.

It is already happening. This is it on action.

The IOC's response to the furore about Hubbard at the Tokyo Olympics was to issue a framework document on inclusion, nondiscrimination and fairness which promoted the inclusion of men in women's sports. The document elevates inclusion to the most important principle. It emphasises that sports participation should not discriminate on the basis of gender identity, sex variations or appearance. It occasionally mentions men and women but doesn't talk about sex anywhere, as far as I can tell. And nothing about fairness for women.
It says you cannot presume that their is an advantage.
If the IOC says something like that, people assume it's based on science. It's not. But the rest of the sporting world follows, with some honourable exceptions like World Athletics and World Aquatics.

I don't think any others were banned by the IBA, probably because they were not tested. But it does appear this is a far bigger issue in women's boxing than was up until now thought.

That post was based on my friend's experience of 15 years of living in Cambodia, and having almost single handedly developed the gay club scene there. When he first arrived there simply wasn't such a scene. He has had Cambodian boyfriends and friends. I think I'll take his word for what he says.

@NotBadConsidering

At the moment the only way it can come to the attention that males are in women’s sport is by people paying attention and having an avenue to raise that concern. The only people who don’t want this to happen are the people who don’t care that men are in women’s sport. If people didn’t want this to happen and also didn’t want men in women’s sport then they would demand mandatory sex screening. If people also don’t want mandatory sex screening then they are championing mixed sex sport and the end of women’s sport.

I don't think that justifies Mumsnetters flicking through photo galleries of athletes and picking out the more masculine-looking ones for attention. I think then saying "we're saving women's sport" while drawing vitriol on women in sport is ironic. (Particularly when you call yourselves feminists.)

To be clear, those figures of males found in the Olympics were of males found. Specific to the Atlanta Olympics, none were excluded from competition. They all competed. They may have won medals.

I said people on the internet, not boxing officials 😄

I think Hubbard should definitely have been included in contention for the olympics, but just not in the female category. As Hubbard is not female, clearly that's the case.

If Hubbard (middle-aged and not in exactly elite olympic weightlifting shape if you ask me) couldn't qualify in the male category, oh well, maybe Hubbard should have trained a bit harder or something.

This is a reasonable point

Random accusations of racism is not

Luckily no one is doing this. Carry on with your life with relief.

If you look at the images provided, you will see that several of the Thai boxers wear male clothing and generally present as 'males' in everyday life. It is not just that they have masculine bodies when boxing.

I’ve seen posts on X over the last week or so about Semenya's true status in which it appears to be brand new information to a number of people. Also some others apologising for not having realised what was going on, but saying they’ve now understood he is male and should never have been competing in women’s races. Better late than never, I guess.

One point about 'it says female in their passports so they’re women' - unfortunately I can’t find it now but I’ve also seen someone on X airily claiming that ‘passport' means a 'bio-passport' with all relevant test results, ie testosterone, chromosomes, doping, blood work etc. But that’s definitely not what I’m taking the IOC to mean - surely aren't they just talking about a regular, easily changeable passport?

You're feministing wrong.

Next week, teaching grandma to suck eggs.

@Shortshriftandlethal

That post was based on my friend's experience of 15 years of living in Cambodia, and having almost single handedly developed the gay club scene there. When he first arrived there simply wasn't such a scene. He has had Cambodian boyfriends and friends. I think I'll take his word for what he says.

I'm not doubting your post at all and I'm aware that culture exists (have travelled there - and to Thailand- myself). It was the implication that the Thai boxer could be gay/a ladyboy I was discussing.

If the journalists aren't doing the investigations they should be in the light of the obscurantism of the IOC, then others are going to have to do it. Researching figures in the public eye is hardly an infringment of anything much in our social media world.

But any excuse for a bit of finger-wagging.

When you say 'surface level' indicators, what do you mean?

Images of all athletes are freely available on the internet, and even published in the media of their home nations. This hardly counts as deviant espionage.

Whether someone wears male clothing or presents as a male in everyday life is irrelevant. What matters is whether they're actually male or female.

I didn't realise that. My God, Alice Milliat will be turning in her grave!

Edited for clarity and grammar.

That wasn't my implication at all. I was talking about gender, sexuality and Cambodian culture.

Ladyboys, like Hirja in India, are most often gay or non conforming men - and presenting as a woman is the only socially sanctioned way for men to access other men in a sexual way.

anything yet on woman's hour?

In racing every Thoroughbred foal born in Britain/Ireland has to be registered within 6 weeks of birth. Along with the paperwork (done digitally these days) you also have to return a blood and hair sample so that the foal’s DNA can be checked to confirm parentage. You’d be surprised to hear the stories of what has been turned up by these tests in the past!