Can someone explain the Khelif controversy?

[whatsinanameisthis]

I’ll start by saying I’ve read all the major news outlets coverage of the Khelif controversy and am still somewhat baffled. So wondering if anyone who has done more research than I can enlighten me.

From what I’ve read in the papers, Khelif was born a girl, is female, has lived her whole life as a woman. She is not trans, or a man. However she maybe has a condition which leads to elevated testosterone?

I’m trying to understand what the accusation is…

Do we think she’s really a trans man who is lying about having been born female?

Or are we saying that if she is a woman but with a condition, that people with that condition should be screened and excluded from the event? I understand that would seem if the condition isn’t her fault but of course differently abled people are all excluded from the mainstream olympics and instead compete in the paralympics. Or if this condition is real (I simply don’t know enough to understand), could the IOC mandate it’s treated before competitors participate?

Or is this even a question of doping? Is there a suggestion she has been taking testosterone to improve her performance?

Why do people keep trying to push this narrative that they have Swyers when they both show clear signs of having gone through male puberty? I assume a desperate need to justify their inclusion in the female category. Why?

The IOC have confirmed that these boxers are not trans.

They also wouldn’t grow underarm hair. Khelif clearly has (and shaved it)

Because if you concede that men who have always thought they were female belong in women's sport it's not a world record setting triple jump away to men who have always felt they are female belong in women's sport.

It’s called having a discussion. Other people have managed to contribute sensibly, why can’t you?

Please read the article linked in this thread.

It is the most straight forward in terms of facts, and the politics behind the IOC opposing the IBA.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5134185-co-owner-of-reddux-writes-a-timeline-of-the-growing-discussion-around-iba-truth-and-ioc-truth

They are men demanding we pretend they are women. I am not sure how that is different?

Something that hasn't been mentioned is the height of Khelif. In Algeria, the average height of men is 175.04cm. The average height of women is 162.35cm www.datapandas.org/ranking/average-height-by-country#full-data If Khelif is 178cm, they are slightly above average for a man. They're very much over the average for a woman.

Yes. At the end of the day, a male who thinks he has an inner female identity or a male who was led to believe he was female ...neither should compete with women.

Because they will have had F on their birth certificate. But I whole heartedly agree they don't belong in women's sport.

Many of the female athletes are above average male height - let not use that as a marker unless you want to examine all the female rowers, high jumpers, tennis players.etc..

Why do people keep trying to push this narrative that they have Swyers when they both show clear signs of having gone through male puberty? I assume a desperate need to justify their inclusion in the female category. Why?

I'm interested in the facts.

Some posters were quick to maintain that IK couldn't participate in the Olympics for physiological reasons if they had SS. I wanted to know why? 🤷‍♀️As it turns out I don't think there does seem to be any physiological reason.

Though as someone has pointed out - they don't LOOK as if they have SS.

We can have an argument about whether she is rightly described as “female” or “male” but that would be semantic (and pointless):

"Semantic" implies "concerned with meaning".

"Female" and "male" mean something and have consequences.

This isn't just "arguing about words"

I think it's fair to point it out. It's circumstantial evidence. On it's own it doesn't mean anything but added to everything else builds a picture.

Sorry wrong thread!

As a female taller than the average UK man I hate height being used to indicate that a woman might not be a woman, especially in a sporting context when lots (but not all sports favour tall people.

I understand that but I think in this particular case where there's independent tests that show an XY male yet people are still denying it then it adds to the overall picture.

I don't think most people here would randomly assume any tall woman is male.

@OvaHere These two boxers are not cheating. Don't make this a person attack on two individuals with (highly) probably DSD. They are competing within the IOC rules.
It is these rules that are appallingly cavalier about women's safety. In contact and particularly combat sports there should be sex/genetic testing of all competitors to ensure that no one who has been through male puberty can play against a woman. Im chilled by all the men commenting that it's OK.

Perhaps ‘knowingly exploiting a loophole in the definition of the female category enabled by the IOC but not tolerated by other major sporting bodies that prioritise safety and fairness’ is a better definition?

Yes the IOC is to blame but I'm not going to pretend there isn't a moral and personal responsibility component to this.

These male boxers chose to do this to women. I realise there will have been external pressures but putting women at risk of serious injury or death on the end of your own fists is still a choice.

Against the odds do you think there's a possibility they think they are women.

They have always been brought up as female, the people around them consider them female and they have female genitals.

What makes you certain they have female genitalia? Or that the people around them genuinely consider them female given that they both appear to present as male?

What makes you certain they have female genitalia? Or that the people around them genuinely consider them female given that they both appear to present as male?

I'm not certain of anything 🤣

I'm questioning the possibility? Especially if the have a DSD.

You said

They have always been brought up as female, the people around them consider them female and they have female genitals

a statement not a question.

Not sure why it’s hilarious that someone would interpret that as certainty.

Thank you, that is an excellent article and explains very clearly step by step both why these boxers are males, and how it is they are being allowed to compete against women.